August, 1836

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deacon blues
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August, 1836

Post by deacon blues » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:19 pm

I'am working on a Documentary History of the L.D.S. Church- arranged chronologically, mostly for my own curiosity, although I would like to get it online, and set it up so other people could contribute. The month of August, 1836 is a curious month in Documentary Church History. Joseph, Hyrum, Sidney, and Oliver all went on a trip to Salem Mass. Here it is:

1836- H August

August 6 Joseph Smith “I received the following: Revelation given in Salem, Massachusetts, August 6th, 1836. ‘1. I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies: 2. I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion; and many people in this city whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion through your instrumentality. 3. Therefore it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with the men in this city, as you shall be led, and as it shall be given you; 4.And it shall come to pass in due time, that I will give this city into your hands; that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours. 6. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them. 7. Tarry in this place, and in the regions round about; 8. And the place where it is my will that you should tarry, for the main, shall be signalized unto you by the peace and power of my Spirit, that shall flow unto you. 9. This place you may obtain by hire, etc. And inquire diligently concerning the more ancient inhabitants and founders of this city; 10. For there are more treasures than one for you in this city; 11. Therefore be ye wise as serpents and yet without sin, and I will order all things for your good, as fast as ye are able to receive them. Amen. (HC: II, pg. 465-66)

August 19th-- Joseph writes to Emma: (1836) Salem, Mass., August 19th, 1836.
My beloved Wife:- Bro. Hyrum is about to start for home before the rest of us, which seems wisdom in God, as our business here can not be determined as soon as we could wish to have it. I thought a line from me by him would be acceptable to you, even if it did not contain but little, that you may know that you and the children are much on my mind. With regard to the great object of our mission, you will be anxious to know. We have found the house since Bro. [William] Burgess left us, very luckily and providentially, as we had one spell been most discouraged. The house is occupied, and it will require much care and patience to rent or buy it. we think we shall be able to effect it; if not now within the course of a few months. We think we shall be at home about the middle of September. I can think of many things concerning our business, but can only pray that you may have wisdom to manage the concerns that involve on you, and want you should believe me that I am your sincere friend and husband. In haste. Yours &c., Joseph Smith Jr. ("Personal Writings of Joseph Smith," p. 389-90) also (JSP:Documents, v. 5, p. 280-83)

August-- Ebenezer Robinson: "We soon learned that four of the leading men of the Church had been to Salem, Massachusetts in search of the hidden treasure spoken of by Brother Burgess, viz. Joseph Smith jr., Hyrum Smith, Sidney Rigdon, and Olive Cowdery. they left home on the 25th of July, and returned in September. .........We were informed that Brother Burgess met them in Salem, evidently according to appointment, but time had wrought such a change that he could not for a certainty point out the house, and soon left. They however, found a house which they felt was the right one, and hired it. It is needless to say they failed to find that treasure, or the gold and silver spoken of in the revelation." (Ebenezer Robinson, "The Return", July 1889)

It gives insights into Joseph's personality that one would be unlikely to encounter in a Sunday School lesson. Enjoy
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Palerider
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Re: August, 1836

Post by Palerider » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:28 pm

I remember reading this account and thinking it to be a wild goose chase if ever there was one. This is clearly one of Joseph's revelations that turned out to be a stinker.

It also made me wonder how much this farce cost them and what they were doing for all that time when no one from the church could see them.

Being in debt the way they were I have the feeling someone else footed the bill for this frolic and probably never got reimbursed.

It also shows, I believe, the beginning cracks in the Joseph/Emma relationship. He sounds as if he's trying to appease her in his letter.

The entire episode is ludicrous. One can only wonder at the level of gullibility that must have existed among those people. :|
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"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Hagoth
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Re: August, 1836

Post by Hagoth » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:37 pm

Deacon,

Thanks for sharing this. Sounds like a great project.

insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts;
Whew!

The common apologetic about this affair is that the treasure was really the souls of the people of Salem, but...
and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.
And it shall come to pass in due time, that I will give this city into your hands;
So when did this happen, or is this something we're still waiting for?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Palerider
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Re: August, 1836

Post by Palerider » Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:06 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:37 pm

insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts;
Whew!
Hagoth, do you have any idea what he's talking about here?

This just seems really weird. Almost like a Freudian slip or something.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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deacon blues
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Re: August, 1836

Post by deacon blues » Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:57 pm

In D&C 111:6 the Lords promises Joseph that "I will give you power to pay them," that is Joseph's and/or the Churches debts. It never happened. :o
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Hagoth
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Re: August, 1836

Post by Hagoth » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:26 am

Palerider wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:06 pm
Hagoth, do you have any idea what he's talking about here?

This just seems really weird. Almost like a Freudian slip or something.
Although the temptation is to think it's talking about their naughty bits, I suspect it means something like "they won't be able to figure out what you're up to," or "they won't be able to beat you to the treasure." There would be no way Joseph's party would be able to get into that house if other people suspected there might be treasure there.

All of this raises an interesting question. Did Joseph really believe there was a buried treasure in that house in Salem? The fact that he went to all of this effort suggests that he did. This complicates the picture for those who think he was a pure con man. If he really believed in buried treasures it makes it more likely that there was some sincerity to his earlier treasure hunting. More importantly, did Joseph really think the voice of God was sending him to Salem to look for that treasure? If he did then maybe he was motivated more by delusion or mental illness than by the con game.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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deacon blues
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Re: August, 1836

Post by deacon blues » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:53 am

Good point, Hagoth. I think this does indicate that the pious fraud view has merit. At some point whether early, middle, or late, or on leap years, Joseph really thought he was a seer.
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Palerider
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Re: August, 1836

Post by Palerider » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:57 am

Or....

Could it mean that Joseph was caught in a web from which he could not extricate himself?

Was the driving force that OTHER people believed in him and had expectations of his abilities as a seer.? Did he feel an obligation to produce because if he didn't he would lose his standing as a leader called of God?

The man who first rehearsed the story was convinced the treasure was there and had likely convinced others it was true. It was an easy solution to their financial woes. I can see everyone looking at Joseph and thinking, "You're the prophet, let's go get this treasure!"
This strikes me as very similar to the effort to sell the BoM copyright in Canada that also turned into a fiasco.

Additionally, if he made the effort to search for the treasure he could always make up his stories for failure, just as he had in his youth.

I think it could go either way. Pious fraud or trapped in his own web of lies and the expectations of others. Crazy....
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Rob4Hope
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Re: August, 1836

Post by Rob4Hope » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:19 pm

How could this "seer" be deceived so easily with treasure hunting at this late stage? This is like the attempt to see the BoM copyright.

Hunh?

And since this happened at this stage of the game and was a mistake, how do we know that the earlier 'revelations' are true?

I remember wondering about these questions years ago. You have this man who speaks with God,...but it appears the channel of revelation is subject to being hijacked? What about the revelations received now,..you know...like getting rid of the word Mormon?

WOW! Talk about a show stopper!!!!!!!

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deacon blues
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Re: August, 1836

Post by deacon blues » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:28 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:19 pm
How could this "seer" be deceived so easily with treasure hunting at this late stage? This is like the attempt to see the BoM copyright.

Hunh?

And since this happened at this stage of the game and was a mistake, how do we know that the earlier 'revelations' are true?

I remember wondering about these questions years ago. You have this man who speaks with God,...but it appears the channel of revelation is subject to being hijacked? What about the revelations received now,..you know...like getting rid of the word Mormon?

WOW! Talk about a show stopper!!!!!!!
This is where current church leaders miss the boat. Instead of the Church examining these mistakes to learn from them, they ignore or minimize them, presumably in hopes of either: A- not making them again!? :lol: or, B. Maintaining a perception of infallible (unhijackable ;) ) revelation and/or infallible leaders-

I 'll admit it is possible that Joseph was playing a role, as Pale rider suggested.
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blazerb
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Re: August, 1836

Post by blazerb » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:48 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:28 pm

This is where current church leaders miss the boat. Instead of the Church examining these mistakes to learn from them, they ignore or minimize them, presumably in hopes of either: A- not making them again!? :lol: or, B. Maintaining a perception of infallible (unhijackable ;) ) revelation and/or infallible leaders-

I 'll admit it is possible that Joseph was playing a role, as Pale rider suggested.
They could learn from this, or from the temple and priesthood ban, or from Adam-God, or from the 18 month missions for men in the 80's or from any number of mistakes that church leaders have made in the past. They refuse to learn, or maybe they learned lessons that don't occur readily to us. Maybe they learned about the importance of maintaining appearances. I think this is similar to what Pale Rider is suggesting.

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Re: August, 1836

Post by wtfluff » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:57 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:06 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:37 pm
insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts;
Whew!
Hagoth, do you have any idea what he's talking about here?

This just seems really weird. Almost like a Freudian slip or something.
Magic Rocks? Magic Hats? Non-Existent Gold Books? Teen Brides?

The possibilities are likely endless.

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Re: August, 1836

Post by Palerider » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:36 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:57 pm
Palerider wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:06 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:37 pm
Whew!
Hagoth, do you have any idea what he's talking about here?

This just seems really weird. Almost like a Freudian slip or something.
Magic Rocks? Magic Hats? Non-Existent Gold Books? Teen Brides?

The possibilities are likely endless.

Image
Having read this a little more carefully, I'm thinking Joseph is writing this all by himself without a scribe to help him formulate it with a little more sophistication. It doesn't read very well.

ETA: I know Oliver Cowdry is there but I still think Joseph is writing this on his own. It just doesn't feel as refined (not that any of Joseph's writings are that great) as some of his other writings. Like he hasn't had time to work it over.

As Hagoth said above, I think there were "parts" of the reason for their journey they were trying to keep secret so that no one else would get wind of the treasure they were after and either attain it before they could get to it or jack up the price on the house beyond what they could afford.

The "revelation" is given after they have already arrived in Salem and they have done some stupid stuff (follies) the nature of which we're not privy to. Someone in the group may be starting to think this trip is a waste of time and people's money.

But I'm betting this revelation is given in order to bail Joseph out of a tight spot because something has occurred that has made either Joseph or all of them look stupid. Something that an inspired leader should have known better.

But the Lord says he's not displeased in spite of their screw up. So if the Lord isn't displeased how can anyone else be? Don't be discouraged, don't start looking for someone to blame. Besides, there's a bunch of great stuff and blessings here for you if you'll just follow my instructions.....(and here comes the escape clause)..."all in due time".

So if it doesn't happen right away we can go home and declare victory. "Yay" for Joseph! He's still a prophet. :roll:
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Hagoth
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Re: August, 1836

Post by Hagoth » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:01 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:28 pm
Being in debt the way they were I have the feeling someone else footed the bill for this frolic and probably never got reimbursed.
Paid vacation.

If I were in Joseph's shoes I think I would have just looked at the rock and said, "Oops, looks like someone beat us too it."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: August, 1836

Post by EternityIsNow » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:32 pm

Putting on my skeptic's treasure-seeking con artist hat... here is a possible scenario, supported by evidence of the counterfeiting culture in the Smith family.

- Joseph knew full well there was never any treasure in his prior hunts. So the treasure was ALWAYS a ruse, and there was usually a mark, someone who will pay for the fake treasure hunt. So when he heard about actual treasure, he could not resist, a nice way to clear his reputation.

- Joseph had found someone, a kind of mark yet again, who was willing to fund a treasure hunt to Salem. This time there must have been insider rumors that another treasure hunter, or a pirate, or a thief, or senile banker, rich widow, or perhaps a very successful counterfeiter had hidden a large stash in a house in Salem and then either disappeared, died, was in jail, or had abandoned the money. Apparently this 'Brother Burgess' was the lead, and he had at one time seen the house where the supposed money (or other valuable) was hidden. A search of records of lost or missing wealth in the Salem area a few years prior might produce interesting evidence, although it might not have been a local source, so would have to stretch out the search and dates a bit.

- Joseph wrote revelations as cover all the time, this was no different. The Canada expedition to sell the copyright was probably a similar cover story for an easy money acquisition attempt. The Canada trip was very possibly about counterfeit money, as the area he travelled to was the hotbed for fake bills at the time. The Salem trip might have also been about counterfeit, although there are certainly other possibilities.

- The gold and silver in the plan could have been purchased with whatever wealth they found, including counterfeit money, so Joseph might have planned to return with gold and silver regardless of the type of treasure, which would have created a lot of credibility for Joseph's abilities and reputation.

Just a theory, but it could fit the facts.

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Re: August, 1836

Post by consiglieri » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:41 pm

I would be remiss if I did not mention Radio Free Mormon did an episode dealing with this episode from church history in the last third of the podcast titled, "Treasure Digging with Joseph Smith and John Steinbeck" from last October.

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... steinbeck/

consiglieri
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Re: August, 1836

Post by consiglieri » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:45 pm

Something I noted while researching the podcast were the following lines from the revelation (111) that jumped off the page at me when I knew the historical background.
August 6 Joseph Smith “I received the following: Revelation given in Salem, Massachusetts, August 6th, 1836. ‘1. I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies: 2. I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion; and many people in this city whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion through your instrumentality. 3. Therefore it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with the men in this city, as you shall be led, and as it shall be given you; 4.And it shall come to pass in due time, that I will give this city into your hands; that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours. 6. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them. 7. Tarry in this place, and in the regions round about; 8. And the place where it is my will that you should tarry, for the main, shall be signalized unto you by the peace and power of my Spirit, that shall flow unto you. 9. This place you may obtain by hire, etc. And inquire diligently concerning the more ancient inhabitants and founders of this city; 10. For there are more treasures than one for you in this city; 11. Therefore be ye wise as serpents and yet without sin, and I will order all things for your good, as fast as ye are able to receive them. Amen. (HC: II, pg. 465-66)
What "place" is it Joseph Smith "may obtain by hire" unless it is the house in the basement of which he believed the treasure to be buried?

And would this not be the same "place" where the revelation says Joseph Smith should "tarry" which would be "signalized unto you by the peace and power of my Spirit"?

And if Burgess could not locate the place, is it not reasonable to conclude that Joseph Smith's excited missive to Emma that he had, in fact, located the house after Burgess left the city, would be this very "place" that he "hired" which was "signalized" unto him "by the peace and power of my Spirit"?

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deacon blues
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Re: August, 1836

Post by deacon blues » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:26 pm

consiglieri wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:41 pm
I would be remiss if I did not mention Radio Free Mormon did an episode dealing with this episode from church history in the last third of the podcast titled, "Treasure Digging with Joseph Smith and John Steinbeck" from last October.

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... steinbeck/
excellent, Consig. Mormon Discussions has done some great work this year. :D
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

consiglieri
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Re: August, 1836

Post by consiglieri » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:02 pm

I think the least that can be said is that Joseph Smith did not leave treasure digging behind him after the church was organized in 1830.

Nor did he leave behind his theology of the importance of seer stones, which over time became characterized as a Urim and Thummum.

As late as 1843, Joseph Smith was teaching the advantages of a having a personal seer stone, and that one would be given to all who inherit the earth in the eternties; which earth will itself be made into a giant seer stone.


D&C 130:9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ's.

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

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Palerider
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Re: August, 1836

Post by Palerider » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:16 pm

consiglieri wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:02 pm

As late as 1843, Joseph Smith was teaching the advantages of a having a personal seer stone, and that one would be given to all who inherit the earth in the eternties...
Emphasis on receiving one in the Eternities.

As Hiram Page found out, having one in mortality could make Joseph break out in hives.

Joseph had Hiram's stone ground to a powder and all his revelations that he had received and written down were burned.

Ouch! :cry:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiram_Page
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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