Let Go of My Ego

[RubinHighlander]

Not talking waffles here; Just had lunch with a friend today and we caught up on a lot of things that have gone down with the families. His family are all still TBMs, except for one other brother. His bish is trying to get an appointment with him this past couple of weeks. Finally he talked to the ExecSec and just flat out told him he was not interested in any callings at this time.

Anyway, we were talking about all the highly educated people we know who are TBMs and how difficult it is to see how they make the church work. The longer we are out of the church and further away from it we are it just keeps getting clearer and more obvious how much BS it is. We have a mutual friend who is a successful Dr. who owns a 3 million dollar home in Colorado with property in Utah. He's been a Bishop for many years, sent boys on missions and now to BYU, but his one vice is music and concerts. The last couple of concerts we met him at he didn't seem at all happy, in fact quite the opposite. We noticed this the past coupe of year and also his pious attitude toward those leaving the church. He hasn't confronted my friend and I for our disaffection, it's just been avoided, but we haven't hidden it from him. My NOM friend said today how he doesn't understand how our friend can live his life that way, being unhappy, but still putting his TBM shoulder to the wheel.

It's my opinion that some of these highly educated people who full on believe it and see the rest of the world as broken, they have very strong ego filter that says "It's true, because I'm in it." Their egos are too big to admit or even entertain the thought they could ever be duped or deceived by a scheme as a false religion or that their parents or ancestors were duped. I think that's why a lot of them like the white shirt and tie corporate military modus operandi.

It seems bishopric and higher is the calling that sorts the wheat from the tares when it comes to the start of the church brokeness. I seem many of my friends and family hit this level and the shelve either gives or get's reinforced. In another thread I mentioned how I sent a link to The Faith Crisis report to my former bishop. He's actually X-military, so I hope he responds because I'm very interested to see how he reacts.

My former SP also reacted to my resignation with the egocentric response: "I've read many of the things you allude to and we've come to different conclusions." Well, he had no idea what my faith journey was like, what I'd read and how I came to my conclusions, so it was quite an assumptive and pious response in my opinion.

I only have a handful if examples to go on, so I've made a lot of assumptions here. How much do you think ego plays into the TBM filter in this information age?

[Hagoth]

How much do you think ego plays into the TBM filter in this information age?

There's no doubt that this is a factor for some people. I have had a couple of friends who are the "smartest guy in the room" types who pride themselves on being the guy everybody comes to for answers to church-related questions. Whey they were confronted with testimony-threatening cognitive dissonance they dove into into full-on, show-no-mercy, shoot-the-messenger, gaslighting, victim blaming apologetic mode on people who followed the facts and came to the "wrong" conclusions. I think it is incomprehensible for such a person to consider going from the big man at the top of the brain pile to being able to say, "I was so wrong. Boy do I feel stupid." I also think this explains a lot of behavior of Dan Petersen types.

[Rob4Hope]

I think its bigger than the Ego ideal for how the church holds its highly educated membership. And I hope I can articulate, if only a little, what I mean.

I've been thinking a lot lately about how North America in general worships and rewards narcissists. Now I can't speak to the women, but I am pretty sure there are at least 5 things men are judged by in North America:

1. Mental Achievement.
2. Financial Affluence.
3. Physical Prowess.
4. Political Clout.
5. Sexual Conquest.

In each of those areas, I've noticed through observation that MOST who are successful are also narcissistic: they enjoy the popularity their achievements bring, but they do it at the exclusion of others--becoming an island of 'self' as it were. There are some REALLY good examples:

1. Larry Ellison
2. David Miscavige
3. Donald Trump
4. Mariah Carey.

Check this out for some ideas: https://www.depressionalliance.org/famous-narcissists/

When you get into the church and especially as you have people climb the ladder, they invest in the station they begin achieving in their congregation and community; many don the hat of the narcissist. They wrap their ego around it, but they also OVER INFLATE just how big their achievements really are. For example, people who have massive mental achievement almost always have blind spots. They are so sure of themselves they can't ask themselves, let alone even consider, there may be something they missed.

I personally learned something a long time ago. The more I learn, the more ignorant I realize I REALLY AM! AND, the more I question what I think I really know. I personally like to consider that mental maturity. But its also humbling. It has not only become easier for me to say: "Wow,...I don't know"...but it has become a LOT MORE COMMON!

You get those who are so sure of themselves, and then wrap that ego around the narcissist feelings that spring up and flourish as they set themselves up as a "light to the world", and you end up with blindness. Not only do they miss what they can't see, they don't even realize they can't see in the first place.

Truly the mote becomes a beam in their own eye.

PS. I actually think there are a lot of intrinsic liars out there. They don't really believe it in the first place. At least not deeply. To them, the surface testimony is all they really need because they've never had anything really shake them.

If something comes along like sickness or death that shakes them, and they will wrap concrete around their beliefs because to even remotely let it wobble with questioning is unraveling.

[Reuben]

These members sound like collective narcissists: people who identify strongly with an organization, and have high but unstable esteem for it.

(A plain narcissist, on the other hand, has high but unstable esteem for himself.)

The church teaches members to be arrogant on its behalf. The lessons seem to stick really well with some people.

[wtfluff]

How much do you think ego plays into the TBM filter in this information age?

As for myself... I think the biggest "ego"-ish thing that was difficult to deal with was: I. Was. Wrong. And then letting go of more than 40 years of sunk costs.

Just a couple tiny things that prolonged the clinging to my deeply held beliefs, even though those beliefs were making me miserable. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only human that did (does) this.

[Emower]

Not that I disagree with any of this, but you could go a long ways with the ego/narcissistic veiwpoint.

Yes, tbms are quite narcissistic.
But the whole church and it's foundation is narcissistic.
Come to think of it, Christianity is narcissistic.
Thinking more about it, religion is quite narcissistic.
Damn religion...Wait, American patriotism is also kinda narcissistic.
Ego is pretty central to any sort of success. Be that good or bad, it just is. Ego plays into tbm'ness just as much, imo, as it plays into exmo'ness. It is an inextricable variable.

Not talking waffles here;

I see what you did there.

[Anon70]

My former SP also reacted to my resignation with the egocentric response: "I've read many of the things you allude to and we've come to different conclusions." Well, he had no idea what my faith journey was like, what I'd read and how I came to my conclusions, so it was quite an assumptive and pious response in my opinion.

I had a pious friend say that to me. Genuinely surprised I asked her to name what she’d read. She asked me to tell her my list and she’d confirm as I listed them out. Turns out she hadn’t read anything I’d read nor the essays or their source material. Which I had done. But she insisted that a lot of what she had read was full of the same info-not sure how she’d drawn that conclusion....but I like your idea of ego. She’s very very well educated and smart and felt that should be evidence for me that it’s all true.

[Cnsl1]

It's hard to seriously question yourself. I suspect that holding onto false beliefs in the face of contradictory data is related to a number of issues and might be different for different people. Ego and narcissism certainly seem to play a part at times, as do fear, personality factors, and intelligence. Also the ability to have faith and not NEED to know or discover (which is likely a personality issue) seems to factor strongly as well. These are just my observations. I don't recall any studies on the subject, though surely there is something.

I've wondered about who joins the church. It's not usually the highly intelligent, successful narcissist. It's more typically the poor, downtrodden, humbled person. The church is full of people who would never join it if they weren't born into it. It's not that the message or doctrine is particularly irresistible, but that it's their tradition and tied to their family and personal identity. You can make a very good guess as to a person's religion based on where they were born or where they live (and this is based on research, not anecdotes).

[Rob4Hope]

Didn't John Dehlin do a survey of sorts where he found the demographics of those leaving were actually the more intelligent and financially fit?

[RubinHighlander]

How much do you think ego plays into the TBM filter in this information age?

I think it is incomprehensible for such a person to consider going from the big man at the top of the brain pile to being able to say, "I was so wrong. Boy do I feel stupid." I also think this explains a lot of behavior of Dan Petersen types.

I think the warrior drama goon is a trait in apologist, like they are the chosen ones in the last days to defend their church; to the point they see right past the facts. Then even if they start seeing the fact, it's like you said, there's now way they would own up to them because they feel they've painted themselves into a corner. There was a comment someone made on Xredit that they were in TBM forum and one TBM accused those that leave of being non-critical thinkers! Holy irony Batman!

[RubinHighlander]

I think its bigger than the Ego ideal for how the church holds its highly educated membership.

Good observations Rob! I was married to a narcissist for 12 years and you are absolutely right. When I think back to my former SP, he was full on narcissistic. I think the narrative of the American dream does play into the Christian revivalist view of doing things better than the rest of the world and divine providence. I was actually thinking about this American Dream thing this morning and I had an epiphany that I was no longer as occupied with it as I once was. I used to feel so guilty, especially after my divorce ruined my finances, that I needed to be somewhere much further in savings, retirement funds, etc. Maybe age is making me not care as much and I think also part of it was that drive to pay tithing and be successful in all things. Now I don't care as much and think more about being just as happy retiring to some little town in S. Utah in a trailer park, spending my days exploring canyons and picking up cool rocks. If my health declined to the point I couldn't walk the canyons anymore, well, I've got options now that I don't buy into the "Endure to the End" BS. I don't need some fake Apostle walking in my hospital room to say "Well done that good and faithful servant."

[RubinHighlander]

And then letting go of more than 40 years of sunk costs.

That was big kick in the balls for me! 40+ years of time and money all paid to a corrupt corporation. It still something I get a pit in my stomach over sometimes.

[RubinHighlander]

I've wondered about who joins the church. It's not usually the highly intelligent, successful narcissist. It's more typically the poor, downtrodden, humbled person. The church is full of people who would never join it if they weren't born into it. It's not that the message or doctrine is particularly irresistible, but that it's their tradition and tied to their family and personal identity. You can make a very good guess as to a person's religion based on where they were born or where they live (and this is based on research, not anecdotes).

Another great observation! Who here that served a mission ever baptized a rich person? If the church was converting people of influence they would be parading them around like Gladys Knight, but those are very rare indeed. We spent our time tracking the poorest neighborhoods and uneducated folks were the easiest prey. The folks still in the church with the most education are those born into it. Like Rasband and many other of the top brass continually touting their pioneer heritage.

[RubinHighlander]

Not that I disagree with any of this, but you could go a long ways with the ego/narcissistic veiwpoint.

Yes, tbms are quite narcissistic.
But the whole church and it's foundation is narcissistic.
Come to think of it, Christianity is narcissistic.
Thinking more about it, religion is quite narcissistic.
Damn religion...Wait, American patriotism is also kinda narcissistic.
Ego is pretty central to any sort of success. Be that good or bad, it just is. Ego plays into tbm'ness just as much, imo, as it plays into exmo'ness. It is an inextricable variable.

Have to agree with all of that! Religions of all kinds, particularly those that preach that they are the one true way. They justify all kinds of bad behavior because their God said it was okay because they are the only super special chosen ones. The Bible is riddled with that narcissistic bi-polar behavior, as given permission by their narcissistic bi-polar God!

[NewLight]

This is such an interesting topic to me, because the one thing I really wanted to have happen as I distanced myself from the church and eventually resigned this last summer was to be understood by those I left behind. I went as far as to write my own essay (a metaphor that I thought would be the most non-threatening approach I could take with the devout) in an effort to explain what happened. The thing is, that people who read it or people I tried to explain my position to simply did not have the capacity to understand. Maybe ego was involved in thwarting this ability - I don't know.

Before leaving for good I met with a handful of people including my bishop and stake president mostly because I wanted them to understand that people leave the church for more than the “Sunday School Answers” and personal integrity and honesty, many times, will not allow them to stay. I wanted them to fully understand this so they might be better at dealing with members who determine they cannot make the Church work for them. Though these discussions went all right, it was blatantly apparent that they simply lacked the ability to fully empathize – it was like trying to explain the color red to some dude who is color blind. The capability to “get it” just did not exist in them, though I would give them high marks for trying.

As a final courtesy, I emailed both my bishop and stake president to let them know I had submitted a request through quitmormon to officially resign. Again, in one final attempt to be understood, I cited some examples of things the corporate church has done that make it impossible for me to be affiliated with it. I included such things as excluding family members from weddings (my daughter with a disability could attend neither of her sisters’ weddings), lack of honesty, treatment of LGBT individuals, and a few more things.

The bishop responded in a paragraph that he had drawn different conclusions, but that he looked up to my family and me. The stake president’s response was a bit all over the place, but included the classic excuse that “our leaders make mistakes” and that it was sad to see me losing my faith. Both of these men are good guys, but just cannot get it. I don’t know if there is an ego component there or not. It might be that when you expend a lot of effort to support an organization, it becomes very difficult to see its problems. Maybe you only can skim the surface of problems and not really get down in the weeds.

In the end, I think this entire experience has hammered home to concept that humans are emotional creatures. We may all think we are rational, but most of what we decide to do is based on emotion and then we justify many of our decisions by logic and reasoning. I imagine that ego is all part of that emotional decision-making process. Who knows??

[Hagoth]

Now I don't care as much and think more about being just as happy retiring to some little town in S. Utah in a trailer park, spending my days exploring canyons and picking up cool rocks.

Make sure to let me know when you make that move. I'm building a couple of electric mountain bikes and I know you and I share a love for the Hanksville-Cainville area!

[RubinHighlander]

Now I don't care as much and think more about being just as happy retiring to some little town in S. Utah in a trailer park, spending my days exploring canyons and picking up cool rocks.

Make sure to let me know when you make that move. I'm building a couple of electric mountain bikes and I know you and I share a love for the Hanksville-Cainville area!

Oh hells yeah

[Hagoth]

The capability to “get it” just did not exist in them...

I think John Larsen's wall analogy is the best explanation of this. In case you haven't heard it, it goes like this:

You are in a dark room. There is a brick wall along one side that represents the church. You have been told all of your life what a grand and strong wall it is. Then some dumbass shines a flashlight on one of the bricks and shows you that it's cracked and crumbling. You say, "yeah, but that's just one little brick, overall the wall is very strong." No matter how many damaged bricks they point out to you with their flashlight beam you can overlook them because you are so convinced that this is the best damn wall ever built and those little imperfections are isolated and insignificant.

Eventually you might accidentally trip the light switch. Once the light is turned on and you can see the entire wall you realize that it's not the strong wall everyone told you it was at all, in fact the whole thing is is a makeshift kludge of crumbling bricks.

Once you pass that threshold you might try to switch the light off but you will never be able to unsee what you have seen.

[alas]

Didn't John Dehlin do a survey of sorts where he found the demographics of those leaving were actually the more intelligent and financially fit?

We have also done NOM surveys in the past and the NOM education level has turned out higher than church average by several years of college. With one survey of NOM, we had about the same percentage of doctors and lawyers as the Q12 and more psychologists, college profs and engineers. So, I think education plays a role, but I think it is less important that personality type.

We NOMs have the Introvert, thinking, ..INTP??? personality type which is a small percentage, like 5% of the whole population and about 1/2 of NOM. So, personality is a big factor. The church just does not work well for introverts who tend to think things through more than base “truth” on feelings. We also tend to value TRUTH, fairness and social justice over tradition and LOYALITY which makes many of us lean left politically. So, many of us never felt like we fit in even if we believed, we just felt different than most of our tribe. And when you feel like a square peg in a round hole, you tend to try to fix yourself and when that doesn’t work, you start looking around to see what the problem really is. Then you find what you are looking for. Truth.

But, yes ego can keep a person from admitting they are wrong and those who value tradition and loyalty above fairness will have their ego more invested in being loyal to their tribe.

[Emower]

In the end, I think this entire experience has hammered home to concept that humans are emotional creatures. We may all think we are rational, but most of what we decide to do is based on emotion and then we justify many of our decisions by logic and reasoning. I imagine that ego is all part of that emotional decision-making process. Who knows??

This is what I was trying to express. Religion does not corner the market on using Ego to advance it's purposes. I imagine that we (NOM) are probably a group of people who are egotistic about valuing "truth" over "feelings". As a whole, and following what Alas said above, we may not flaunt it like some other personality types might, but it is there. My Dad has a phd, and I have a masters degree. He feels like if I had continued my education it would have humbled me and I would realize that that I dont know everything. I feel like he took mental shortcuts to reconcile things. My Ego and his are playing an equal part in our disagreements over church stuff.