The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

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wtfluff
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by wtfluff » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:37 pm

GoodBoy wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:36 pm
3. Much of the repetitive "return and report" was eliminated.
So glad to see this go. It was so tedious. Again the goal was probably to shorten it.
Yeah, yeah... But the real question is: Do they still get to Go Down? :twisted:

(Sorry... I kept the 13-year-old school-boy comment to myself for ~6 hours. (On this board at least.) It's a fairly decent accomplishment. Couldn't keep it under Fluff any longer.)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by MalcolmVillager » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:55 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:37 pm
GoodBoy wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:36 pm
3. Much of the repetitive "return and report" was eliminated.
So glad to see this go. It was so tedious. Again the goal was probably to shorten it.
Yeah, yeah... But the real question is: Do they still get to Go Down? :twisted:

(Sorry... I kept the 13-year-old school-boy comment to myself for ~6 hours. (On this board at least.) It's a fairly decent accomplishment. Couldn't keep it under Fluff any longer.)
Bwahahaha :twisted:

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Random
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by Random » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:51 pm

GoodBoy wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:36 pm
Sealings:
We are awaiting any report as to if the Sealing has changed."
I doubt this will change.
I understand the woman no longer gives herself to the man.
[They] which knew me from the beginning . . . would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Acts 26:5

Anon70
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by Anon70 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:17 pm

On fb, someone shared this about the sealing:

- Instead of women giving themselves and the men not, they both just to receive each other, and there’s talk of them counseling with each other and laboring together to raise a family and men are given a charge to be gentle etc - it’s very beautiful

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Raylan Givens
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by Raylan Givens » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:57 pm

Anon70 wrote:On fb, someone shared this about the sealing:

- Instead of women giving themselves and the men not, they both just to receive each other, and there’s talk of them counseling with each other and laboring together to raise a family and men are given a charge to be gentle etc - it’s very beautiful
Glad to hear this. My cousin's wife had a tough time at their sealing (from what I heard) a few months ago.

This would have made her feel better.

I remember my first time through. I wanted to walk out and check the name of they Church on the front of the building. My BP never prepared me for it. He made it seem so normal. I told my DW when we were married that I wouldn't go much, I just never felt comfortable.

I also remember my uncle sharing ideas with me in the celestial room. I thought it was a little profound (what the hat means, and the four rows on the shoulder with three pleats etc.) He said it represents twelve tribes etc...

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"Ah, you know, I think you use the Bible to do whatever the hell you like" - Raylan Givens

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Palerider
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by Palerider » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:22 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:09 pm
Church news has released a statement to alleviate any doubts about changes to the temple ceremony:

First Presidency releases statement on temples

Here's the best gaslighting I've seen in ages:
......Prophets have taught that there will be no end to such adjustments as directed by the Lord to His servants.
Joseph Smith:

"Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed."

".....all things pertaining to that (this) dispensation should be conducted precisely in accordance with the preceding dispensations.... He (God) set the temple ordinances to be the same forever and ever and set Adam to watch over them, to reveal them from heaven to man, or to send angels to reveal them."

James E.Talmage:

"No jot, iota, or tittle of the temple rites is otherwise than uplifting and sanctifying. In every detail the endowment ceremony contributes to covenants of morality of life, consecration of person to high ideals, devotion to truth, patriotism to nation, and allegiance to God."

If the above statements are true, I see no reason the temple ordinances should ever have been changed in any regard whatsoever....

But then, I'm kind of dumb. Maybe I'm just not living worthy enough and I need to repent of something. :(

I'll use Henry J. Eyring's councel and dig through my own life until I can find something, somewhere, somehow that needs correcting and I'll humble myself and pray and read my scriptures until I know that the Brethren are right.... :|

Then I'll be happy!!! :shock:
Last edited by Palerider on Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Palerider
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by Palerider » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:31 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:25 pm

At the end of the dramatic / movie section, BOTH Adam and Eve direct comments to the audience, and Eve has the last word.
I know this is truly revelation because this is how it's always been at my house... :)
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Random
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by Random » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:06 am

Sounds like a good change.
[They] which knew me from the beginning . . . would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Acts 26:5

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jfro18
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by jfro18 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:26 am

The changes are good for women in the church, but of course it opens a whole new set of problems such as Joseph Smith saying they can not be altered or changed.

Of course most members don't know about the blood oaths, penalties, and old school washings/annointings either...

I'm happy the church is going more mainstream, but I wish they could drop the garments (that was on the same list of rumors that many of the other things that have 'come to pass' was on) and at least as an ex-mo with a TBM wife I'd get some good out of these changes.

It also doesn't make the church any more true. In fact it makes it less true if you really think about how the temple ceremonies were taught (as mentioned above), but feelings don't care about our facts.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by Mormorrisey » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:24 am

As the resident active guy, we had a temple trip planned last night as a family, and I can confirm the rumours. At least about the endowment session.

Of course, I had to hide why I was so excited to go to the temple after browsing the interwebs, but the reaction from Sis M and the females in our party were very positive about the changes. In fact, one family member had not really attended the temple because of the misogyny found there, was in tears afterwards, so I'm pleased for her.

I'm generally pleased, although I was very aware not to say "it's about friggin' time," at least to the people I was with. Not only that, but here's my problem with all of this. I've spent the last, well 5 years at least, complaining about the misogyny of the temple to my leaders, and all of them have leadersplained it away, "they didn't mean it like that," "have you thought about it this way," etc. etc. Well, clearly it was a problem and now the inequality is gone, so now I just have to drop my objections and/or more calls for REAL equality in the church, women getting the priesthood and the like? That's my problem with it. But I'm also with the progressive Mofems on this one, it is a pretty significant step forward for a church steeped in patriarchy - but clearly more needs to happen.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
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jfro18
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by jfro18 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:09 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:24 am
I'm generally pleased, although I was very aware not to say "it's about friggin' time," at least to the people I was with. Not only that, but here's my problem with all of this. I've spent the last, well 5 years at least, complaining about the misogyny of the temple to my leaders, and all of them have leadersplained it away, "they didn't mean it like that," "have you thought about it this way," etc. etc. Well, clearly it was a problem and now the inequality is gone, so now I just have to drop my objections and/or more calls for REAL equality in the church, women getting the priesthood and the like? That's my problem with it. But I'm also with the progressive Mofems on this one, it is a pretty significant step forward for a church steeped in patriarchy - but clearly more needs to happen.
To me this is what it comes down to.

I remember once DW was mocking how Catholics tend to change policy based on social changes... and I remember biting my tongue about polygamy/ban on blacks for the Mormon church.

So we talked about how the temple if misogynist before and she said "It's the way God wants it and it can't change because some women are asking for it."

I guarantee now she would completely flip and say it wasn't because women asked for it, but because Nelson was the first prophet to ever pray about it.

It's absolute nonsense... and yet it's eaten up. Like most of us have said, it's a good step towards equality in a church that's foundation is inequality, but it really proves even further what a man-made lie this is.

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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by Thoughtful » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:29 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:24 am
As the resident active guy, we had a temple trip planned last night as a family, and I can confirm the rumours. At least about the endowment session.

Of course, I had to hide why I was so excited to go to the temple after browsing the interwebs, but the reaction from Sis M and the females in our party were very positive about the changes. In fact, one family member had not really attended the temple because of the misogyny found there, was in tears afterwards, so I'm pleased for her.

I'm generally pleased, although I was very aware not to say "it's about friggin' time," at least to the people I was with. Not only that, but here's my problem with all of this. I've spent the last, well 5 years at least, complaining about the misogyny of the temple to my leaders, and all of them have leadersplained it away, "they didn't mean it like that," "have you thought about it this way," etc. etc. Well, clearly it was a problem and now the inequality is gone, so now I just have to drop my objections and/or more calls for REAL equality in the church, women getting the priesthood and the like? That's my problem with it. But I'm also with the progressive Mofems on this one, it is a pretty significant step forward for a church steeped in patriarchy - but clearly more needs to happen.
I run in MoFem circles.

The SL Trib article is BS, claiming feminists are celebrating this. Our sisters were silenced or shunned over the ideas that were just rolled out as RMNs revelation.
For 40 years.
MoFems are not generally happy about this. A few are. Most are devastated at being collateral damage, feel it's too little, too late, or are otherwise pained by the gaslight.

The feminists that are happy are the ones femsplaininf the same s%*t our mothers did, about how we were reading into it before, and isn't this what you wanted?

And dont forget, many are still under covenant to hearken or obey, and newbies are not. They want to know if abusive husbands covenants retroactovely changed without their consent....

It's all problematic. Lots of pain.

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Not Buying It
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by Not Buying It » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:47 am

Why the hell would I want to worship a God who can't ever seem to get anything right the first time?
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by wtfluff » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:48 am

Thoughtful wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:29 am
...
And dont forget, many are still under covenant to hearken or obey, and newbies are not. They want to know if abusive husbands covenants retroactively changed without their consent...
...
Yep, I'm not so sure cRusty F. Nelson or any of his cronies realize: Any time a believer calls out a non-believer about "keeping covenants" now, the non-believer simply has to ask: "Which covenants? Pre-2019, or post-2019?"

If they can change the "covenants" at any time, the "covenants" are not valid.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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Red Ryder
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:53 am

Thoughtful wrote:And dont forget, many are still under covenant to hearken or obey, and newbies are not. They want to know if abusive husbands covenants retroactovely changed without their consent....
It will all be sorted out in the next life.

Can you imagine the Judgment Day where Billions of former humans with physical bodies are lined up and Elder Jones with the megaphone is telling people to get in line! Everyone else including the Catholics please follow Elder Smith to the baptismal font in the basement.

All Mormons who have been endowed, please step over to the right side of the auditorium.

Anyone who slit there throat and pantomimed disemboweling themselves pre 1990 please move to lane #1.

Anyone who was naked and wore a funny poncho during your initiatory before 2005, please line up in lane #2!

Any women who veiled there faces and harkined to their husbands pre 2019 please line up in lane #3!
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Mormorrisey
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by Mormorrisey » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:40 am

Thoughtful wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:29 am
Mormorrisey wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:24 am
As the resident active guy, we had a temple trip planned last night as a family, and I can confirm the rumours. At least about the endowment session.

Of course, I had to hide why I was so excited to go to the temple after browsing the interwebs, but the reaction from Sis M and the females in our party were very positive about the changes. In fact, one family member had not really attended the temple because of the misogyny found there, was in tears afterwards, so I'm pleased for her.

I'm generally pleased, although I was very aware not to say "it's about friggin' time," at least to the people I was with. Not only that, but here's my problem with all of this. I've spent the last, well 5 years at least, complaining about the misogyny of the temple to my leaders, and all of them have leadersplained it away, "they didn't mean it like that," "have you thought about it this way," etc. etc. Well, clearly it was a problem and now the inequality is gone, so now I just have to drop my objections and/or more calls for REAL equality in the church, women getting the priesthood and the like? That's my problem with it. But I'm also with the progressive Mofems on this one, it is a pretty significant step forward for a church steeped in patriarchy - but clearly more needs to happen.
I run in MoFem circles.

The SL Trib article is BS, claiming feminists are celebrating this. Our sisters were silenced or shunned over the ideas that were just rolled out as RMNs revelation.
For 40 years.
MoFems are not generally happy about this. A few are. Most are devastated at being collateral damage, feel it's too little, too late, or are otherwise pained by the gaslight.

The feminists that are happy are the ones femsplaininf the same s%*t our mothers did, about how we were reading into it before, and isn't this what you wanted?

And dont forget, many are still under covenant to hearken or obey, and newbies are not. They want to know if abusive husbands covenants retroactovely changed without their consent....

It's all problematic. Lots of pain.
You're right about this, of course, there have been a range of reactions. I should have said "some" Mofems, at least the ones I've read and followed. I thought Gina Colvin had the line of the day, though, which was a little different: "Good to hear about the gender improvements in the endowment. May it carry over to all aspects of the LDS Church. May they drop the ticket price. And may I have do over."

Yeah, that's about it.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Kishkumen
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by Kishkumen » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:41 am

wtfluff wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:48 am
Thoughtful wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:29 am
...
And dont forget, many are still under covenant to hearken or obey, and newbies are not. They want to know if abusive husbands covenants retroactively changed without their consent...
...
Yep, I'm not so sure cRusty F. Nelson or any of his cronies realize: Any time a believer calls out a non-believer about "keeping covenants" now, the non-believer simply has to ask: "Which covenants? Pre-2019, or post-2019?"

If they can change the "covenants" at any time, the "covenants" are not valid.
I have a female friend that I've known for nearly 20 years. I would put her in the liberal TBM camp. She didn't ever enlist as a missionary. Currently, she's in her mid-30's and has not married. She attended the temple ceremony for the first time in her mid to late 20's.

I remember when I was a recent RM and we were in college. She was a bit disheartened that she hadn't met Mr. Right and still single while all her friends were getting married off. She desired further light and knowledge and wanted to 'take out' her endowments. Her bishop at the time was rather hesitant and did not give her approval for a temple recommend to 'take out' her endowments. Of course, at the time she had no idea what the temple endowment ceremony involved. I remember thinking it was odd that a female was generally discouraged from the endowment ceremony unless she was going on a mission or getting married in a few days.

The temple changes are a painful reminder of those thoughts from so many years ago. She was discouraged from endowment because she had no one to covenant to. With these changes to the temple ceremony, will it loosen the reins on non-missionary unwed females to participate in the endowment ceremony?

In hindsight, I'm guessing the Q15 thought it was a necessary unfortunate consequence of having female missionaries to let them attend the endowment ceremony as part of the missionary deployment checklist.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by MerrieMiss » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:00 am

I've had this argument with my husband several times in the past: I've claimed that the temple has changed many times. I've told him to ask his parents. He won't do it. This will make for some interesting conversations moving forward.

I really hate how the TBM answer they give to all this is "continuing revelation" or "the church changes for our times."
The true opposite of order is not disorder but freedom. Most profoundly, the true opposite of control is not chaos but self-control. -Jay Griffiths

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wtfluff
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by wtfluff » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:06 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:40 am
...
I thought Gina Colvin had the line of the day, though, which was a little different: "Good to hear about the gender improvements in the endowment. May it carry over to all aspects of the LDS Church. May they drop the ticket price. And may I have do over."
...
While we're dreaming (hallucinating) about the ticket price... "May they offer tithing refunds." :cry:
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

Thoughtful
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Re: The long rumored temple changes are happening now?

Post by Thoughtful » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:31 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:53 am
Thoughtful wrote:And dont forget, many are still under covenant to hearken or obey, and newbies are not. They want to know if abusive husbands covenants retroactovely changed without their consent....
It will all be sorted out in the next life.

Can you imagine the Judgment Day where Billions of former humans with physical bodies are lined up and Elder Jones with the megaphone is telling people to get in line! Everyone else including the Catholics please follow Elder Smith to the baptismal font in the basement.

All Mormons who have been endowed, please step over to the right side of the auditorium.

Anyone who slit there throat and pantomimed disemboweling themselves pre 1990 please move to lane #1.

Anyone who was naked and wore a funny poncho during your initiatory before 2005, please line up in lane #2!

Any women who veiled there faces and harkined to their husbands pre 2019 please line up in lane #3!
In this life, for example, one of my friends was raped and abused while her husband quoted the temple ceremony at her.

Her priesthood leaders counseled her not to leave, but to go home and keep her covenants.

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