Faith Crisis Report

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
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Hagoth
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Faith Crisis Report

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:07 am

RubinHighlander mentioned the Faith Crisis Report in another thread. I have heard of this but had never actually seen it, so I looked it up:

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... t_R24B.pdf

It seems like I should know more about this. Can someone fill me in? Is this an official church publication (I would assume so since the first thing it says is "Proprietary and Confidential"). Was this based on John Dehlin's research or did the church do its own legwork to produce it?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Corsair
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by Corsair » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:16 am

This got released on reddit a few weeks ago. It's amazing to read, and the story was given that Elder Uchtdorf read through all of the faith transition narratives. I think it is reflected in the string of low level changes that Nelson is implementing, although a real correlation would not be acknowledged.

But this is yet another thing that I doubt is going to make a ripple in the mainstream ward we are (supposed to be) attending. I may end up showing my wife, but I am not expecting a big transition. I actually expect a lot of skepticism from believers, but this might simply reflect my own cynicism.

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Hagoth
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:53 am

Corsair wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:16 am
I actually expect a lot of skepticism from believers, but this might simply reflect my own cynicism.
Skepticism about the authenticity of the report or about its findings?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:54 am

Hagoth, you must have been back at church, out of the country, or maybe in a coma when we discussed this on NOM.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3629
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Corsair
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by Corsair » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:17 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:53 am
Corsair wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:16 am
I actually expect a lot of skepticism from believers, but this might simply reflect my own cynicism.
Skepticism about the authenticity of the report or about its findings?
Skepticism of both. From the point of view of the average believer, surely this could not be a real report. But, if it was, then the conclusions surely must support the notion that LDS testimonies are totally secure and supported. These outliers need some bishop to sternly tell them to sing another verse of "Follow the Prophet".

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Hagoth
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:42 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:54 am
Hagoth, you must have been back at church, out of the country, or maybe in a coma when we discussed this on NOM.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3629
Wow, totally missed it. I was up to my eyebrows in research paper writing.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by Palerider » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:00 pm

One of the interesting items mentioned was the dilemma of acknowledging that there is in fact a faith crisis throughout the church (which could actually help the disaffected) at the cost of exposing those who are unaware.

Another was the enormous cost in tithing this is to the church since the majority leaving are well educated and in higher income brackets.

The old guys at the top must be beside themselves trying to figure out how to deal with this.

Too bad nobody up there in the COB can receive revelation. I'm sure the Lord has a solution. But I imagine church leadership are unprepared for it and aren't really asking yet. You know....just like the priesthood revelation and the current temple changes.

Why do I get the impression it's really leadership that are unprepared for these things and not the general membership?? 🤔
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Gatorbait
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by Gatorbait » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:23 pm

Wow- just wow. This came out even before the despicable business with the gays and transgender shelf-crushing nightmare that sent a lot of us packing for good, at least in our minds. Wow.

This is a good find. Thanks for sharing. There are a lot of brilliant people in the church, but nowadays, a lot of the brightest and best are doing the TTFN to the church, and meaning it.

Gone are the days of the brethren are not to be questioned- even if they are wrong. Nope- them days is gone, gone, gone.

Too many know too much and it is getting worse every day.

For me, since I don't look at NOM very often, this sort of thing is eye-popping. A lot of you are probably going, "This is old news", but I didn't know anything about this until today. Thanks again Hagoth.
"You're not supposed to be blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or who says it" Malcolm X

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moksha
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by moksha » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:11 am

It looks to be a genuine internal document written by Elder Clayton M. Christiansen to address the alarming number of people leaving the Church due to the availability of information regarding the history and practices of the Church. It was not for public consumption because by doing so the Church would be forced to acknowledge that members are leaving.

It would be interesting to see how this issue would be discussed on the apologetic Mormon Discussions and Dialogue board.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Anon70
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by Anon70 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:49 am

Well I missed it too....I feel so....validated, I guess.

I’m definitely in the space discussed on page 48-49. Trying to stay for my spouse but finding it harder and harder especially after accepting a calling where I’m supposed to vocally bear my ”testimony” regularly. I want to leave but it would have significant family and social impacts.

Like others I’m pissed that some of the top leaders know all this and continue to lie and blame and shame.

I also wonder how many of “us” are at church on Sundays in the same situation but without the freedom to be honest about it. I need some NOMs in real life.

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2bizE
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by 2bizE » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:50 am

Corsair wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:16 am
This got released on reddit a few weeks ago. It's amazing to read, and the story was given that Elder Uchtdorf read through all of the faith transition narratives. I think it is reflected in the string of low level changes that Nelson is implementing, although a real correlation would not be acknowledged.

But this is yet another thing that I doubt is going to make a ripple in the mainstream ward we are (supposed to be) attending. I may end up showing my wife, but I am not expecting a big transition. I actually expect a lot of skepticism from believers, but this might simply reflect my own cynicism.
Do you think there is a correlation between this report and Uchtdorf being outed from the FP?
Perhaps he wanted some changes, brought them up with the Q15 and then was reassigned to Greenland.
~2bizE

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Palerider
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by Palerider » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:18 pm

2bizE wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:50 am
Corsair wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:16 am
This got released on reddit a few weeks ago. It's amazing to read, and the story was given that Elder Uchtdorf read through all of the faith transition narratives. I think it is reflected in the string of low level changes that Nelson is implementing, although a real correlation would not be acknowledged.

But this is yet another thing that I doubt is going to make a ripple in the mainstream ward we are (supposed to be) attending. I may end up showing my wife, but I am not expecting a big transition. I actually expect a lot of skepticism from believers, but this might simply reflect my own cynicism.
Do you think there is a correlation between this report and Uchtdorf being outed from the FP?
Perhaps he wanted some changes, brought them up with the Q15 and then was reassigned to Greenland.
Was wondering this same thing as well.

Wouldn't be surprised at all if it were true. Maybe he could console himself with some long airplane rides among the clouds?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Hagoth
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:11 pm

2bizE wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:50 am
Do you think there is a correlation between this report and Uchtdorf being outed from the FP?
I just read it (but haven't finished the individual untestimonials) and in retrospect that seems likely. Also, the new changes in the temple seem almost tailored to the concerns of some of the women in this report. In contrast, the BYUI talk by Henry F. (or whatever) Eyring does everything this report seems to condemn.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Corsair
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by Corsair » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:50 pm

2bizE wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:50 am
Do you think there is a correlation between this report and Uchtdorf being outed from the FP?
Perhaps he wanted some changes, brought them up with the Q15 and then was reassigned to Greenland.
Yes, having Elder Uchtdorf exit the First Presidency is probably correlated with some polite differences with views of Elder Nelson. Elder Nelson is a surgeon that wants to make changes, but preserve life in the body. These are not the same changes that Uchtdorf would choose and certainly not those that Monson or Hinckley did choose. Nelson is preserving the life and vision of the LDS church that he thinks is best.

I think that this simply represents a difference in opinion in how the institutional LDS church should address the growing age of unbelief in the old narratives. Elder Uchtdorf appears to want more open conciliation that might risk some fervent believers. Elder Nelson appears to favor the fervent believers at the risk of the liberals. Some of the changes will still be appreciated by the liberal crowd, like many changes in the endowment.

Nelson is interested in smaller concessions and organizational changes that preserve fervent believers and tithe-paying orthodoxy. His changes have been inspirational to the mass of faithfully attending non-leaders that want an assurance that revelation truly persists with living prophets. Uchtdorf did not resign in protest which speaks to the type of loyal men that are carefully selected for this highest quorum of the church and that Uchtdorf is not entirely opposed to how Nelson operates.

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blazerb
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by blazerb » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:56 pm

It was pointed out on reddit that this report bears a striking resemblance to the report created by John Dehlin. If Clayton Christensen prepared this, it certainly looks like he used Dehlin's data.

You can read John Dehlin's report here:
http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/wp-co ... r20121.pdf

Reuben
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by Reuben » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:19 pm

blazerb wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:56 pm
It was pointed out on reddit that this report bears a striking resemblance to the report created by John Dehlin. If Clayton Christensen prepared this, it certainly looks like he used Dehlin's data.

You can read John Dehlin's report here:
http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/wp-co ... r20121.pdf
John has said he was involved with the original research. I think both reports are based on the same data.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Palerider
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by Palerider » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:38 pm

Corsair wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:50 pm
Elder Uchtdorf appears to want more open conciliation that might risk some fervent believers. Elder Nelson appears to favor the fervent believers at the risk of the liberals.
And the problem with Nelson's strategy is that he thinks he's doing a little heart valve repair. What he doesn't realize is that the "fervent believers" are already at risk because he's not dealing with a heart problem. He's dealing with cancer that's metastasizing.

But like a carpenter, he sees every problem as a nail and every solution as a hammer.

As the report indicated, some of the membership may APPEAR fervent at present but the cancer takes time to progress and develop. It's already there and working insidiously.

He first needs to recognize he needs an oncologist. But the problem is leadership were asleep at the wheel. They needed the oncologist 15-20 years ago.......too bad they weren't recieving revelation or they could have been well forewarned of this coming catastrophe. To me this serves as a testimony of their lack of foresight, lack of understanding and the inadequacy of their solutions. No prophecy or revelation found here.

This is pancreatic cancer. Chances of survival are zero at this point. :|
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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glass shelf
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by glass shelf » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:09 pm

I totally missed it, too, Hagoth. I was knee-deep in a full-time externship that was eating up 50-60 hours of time a week plus taking my last two graduate classes then, so I'm not surprised.

My favorite bit was that Mormonthink is thought by many to be the most faith-eroding website because as soon as I read the essays and allowed myself to google, I ended up on mormonthink and was done.

It's fascinating to see it all laid out so bluntly. And I still prefer the term faith transition.

Thoughtful
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by Thoughtful » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:23 pm

Can someone clarify the evidence of a link with Elder Christiansen please?

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blazerb
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Re: Faith Crisis Report

Post by blazerb » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:15 pm

Reuben wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:19 pm
blazerb wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:56 pm
It was pointed out on reddit that this report bears a striking resemblance to the report created by John Dehlin. If Clayton Christensen prepared this, it certainly looks like he used Dehlin's data.

You can read John Dehlin's report here:
http://www.whymormonsquestion.org/wp-co ... r20121.pdf
John has said he was involved with the original research. I think both reports are based on the same data.
I can see why the church would want to keep this confidential. Thanks.

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