The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

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wtfluff
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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by wtfluff » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:07 am

1smartdodog wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:11 am
Joking I was, but the point is valid. I think the issue is the current leaders have set themselves up that anything they say is revelation. Hence they can proclaim the most trivial things to be direction from god.
I probably should have realized it was a joke, but it's no secret that I'm slow. Especially when it comes to all things related to mormonism.

My statement about a revelation telling the leaders of LDS-Inc. to be honest is basically a joke too. If mormon god wanted the mormon prophits to be honest, mormon god should have "revealed" that to them in the early 1800's; Yet here we are almost 200 years later, and they're incapable of being honest.
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Not Buying It
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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by Not Buying It » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:08 pm

President Nelson is just legacy building. That’s all he’s doing, and the sad thing is that a few relatively superficial changes are all it takes for him to be remembered as a Church president who made a lot of changes.

Is going from 3 to 2 hours every Sunday a big change? Well, yeah, but it’s just an administrative change really, as are all of his other changes. He could, you know, give women the priesthood or disavow Joseph Smith’s sexual misbehavior or admit the Book of Abraham is a hoax, but to be remembered as a mover and and a shaker all he has to do really is change the length of meetings and change a few phrases in the temple ceremony and throw a snit about being called Mormons. Pretty small potatoes really.
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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by nehor90210 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:01 pm

But really, is two-hour church and these other changes enough to make a legacy? Does that mean if SWK hadn't lifted the Priesthood Ban, his presidency might he best known for introducing the consolidated block?
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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:09 am

nehor90210 wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:01 pm
But really, is two-hour church and these other changes enough to make a legacy?
Only in this generation when the faintest traces of innovation are advertised as God's bulldozer at work. Yet very few members are even aware that Brigham Young completely dismantled and rebuilt the church in his own image. In those days something like changing the meeting schedule wouldn't even be a speck on the horizon.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by wakarusa » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:19 am

EternityIsNow wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:34 pm
He knows the odds are against him time-wise. He has already outlived both his parents, based on Wikipedia, his mother lived to be 90 and father lived to be 93. So everything is fast-tracked.
A standard mortality table gives a 94 year old man 24% probability of dying within 1 year. Average life expectancy at this point is slightly under 3 years.

My question would be, is there any additional change he could make that would be questioned as heretical or leading the church to apostasy? Or could he basically get away with anything at this point?

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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by no1saint » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:44 am

wakarusa wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:19 am
EternityIsNow wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:34 pm
He knows the odds are against him time-wise. He has already outlived both his parents, based on Wikipedia, his mother lived to be 90 and father lived to be 93. So everything is fast-tracked.
A standard mortality table gives a 94 year old man 24% probability of dying within 1 year. Average life expectancy at this point is slightly under 3 years.

My question would be, is there any additional change he could make that would be questioned as heretical or leading the church to apostasy? Or could he basically get away with anything at this point?
I think given the way the Church operates, all of these changes would have had to been supported by the full Council of the FP and Q12. TSM was ineffective for a few years before he departed making any of the major changes difficult without a prophetic mantle and mandate. I’m guessing they’re rushing things before age catches up with RMN and they’re left frozen whilst the Presiding everything fades away in the shadows.

As mentioned by many of above, SWK had Dec II as his legacy. Without that, the rest he did was window dressing. I’m not sure they’re ready for any other major leap forwards. Gender equality and female visibility has come a fair way in comparison to the era of SWK and back. I woild see more involvement and perhaps governance over executive committees in the near future. I think recently Oaks referred to some of the womens aux leaders as sister presidents, lster corrected in the official text as sister leaders. Is this a hint of a change on how the GA and auxillaries are structured and referred to?

If RMN canonises the Family proclamation as Dec III that would in my opinion put any chance of LGBTQI advancement back 50 years or plus.

The new hymnal is due to come out in a couple of years sans patriotic hymns, deletion of less popular hymns, the inclusion of international content and I would say versatility of arrangements and accompanying musical instruments. I predict guitars will be allowed ad accomodated with arrangements.

Garments may become optional outside of the temple. Much in the way the one piece garments were gradually phased out in favour of the current mode.

Other then that, I’m not sure what else that might change.

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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by Brent » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:25 am

Who starts fights during a football game? The team that is losing, to vent frustration, often starts getting violent. They're losing. They can't seem to do anything to change that so they lash out.

Mr. Nelson is lashing out because his team is losing. They are growing only as fast as the population--meaning that they are no longer "growing" only "sustaining". The score is 44 to 16 and the guys with 16 are getting snippy. Remember, the "hardcore" Latter-day Saint believes the church is fading because it's "not tough enough" and "too easy" and "succumbing to popular culture" and wants a return to "hard doctrines".

I believe that the church is responding to culture by changing to reflect it. Yup. I believe in my lifetime I will see same sex sealings. Why? Because Joseph did it. Brigham did it. There's a precedent. Also, Millennial's absolutely can't stand the intolerance and bigotry of the old school. I believe that Mr. Nelson and especially the younger GAs understand that being the "Westboro Church of Latter-day Saints" is absolutely untenable. Hard liners like the folks that go to "LDS Freedom Forum" are full of vile and hatred towards those unlike themselves and going that way will not benefit the church--it will kill it. The fraud of the church in Mexico is being unveiled. The withering of the church in Europe is the fate of the church in the US. Punching won't turn the tide, only give momentary satisfaction followed by disrespect for lack of control. Some in the ivory tower of the church office building someone realizes this.

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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by Hermey » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:53 pm

At his age, he's gotta know....

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moksha
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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by moksha » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:43 am

1smartdodog wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:11 am
Hence they can proclaim the most trivial things to be direction from God.
Like when the suggestion was made that deacons wear white shirts and ties when passing the sacrament. Pretty soon it became the official uniform of the priesthood.

Wonder if Wendy and Sherri have any favorite tunes to add to the hymnal?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by no1saint » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:36 am

moksha wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:43 am
1smartdodog wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:11 am
Hence they can proclaim the most trivial things to be direction from God.
Like when the suggestion was made that deacons wear white shirts and ties when passing the sacrament. Pretty soon it became the official uniform of the priesthood.

Wonder if Wendy and Sherri have any favorite tunes to add to the hymnal?
I loved wearing non white shirts to church so I couldn’t pass or bless the sacrament. lol

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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by wtfluff » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:39 am

no1saint wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:36 am
moksha wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:43 am
1smartdodog wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:11 am
Hence they can proclaim the most trivial things to be direction from God.
Like when the suggestion was made that deacons wear white shirts and ties when passing the sacrament. Pretty soon it became the official uniform of the priesthood.

Wonder if Wendy and Sherri have any favorite tunes to add to the hymnal?
I loved wearing non white shirts to church so I couldn’t pass or bless the sacrament. lol
Funny: The handbook literally says that white shirts are not required. :roll:
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:10 am

I wonder how much of this is RMN finally having his way and carte blanche to do what he wants, how much is someone else pulling his strings, and how much is them slowly waking up to the 21st century.

Thinsk like the rebanding to COJCOLDS is a burr that RMN has has up his rear end for many years, so it makes sense that he would pull that one out. Other things are kinda against his conservatism. The Temple changes look more like something that semi progressive DFU would do, not RMN. on one hand I could see Aunt Wendy pushing that one, but given how rushed the roll out apeared, I wonder if there was something else going on in the background. Some pending lawsuit or something? Don't know, that is a pure guess.

Two hour block could be something that he wants, but could also be the accountants saying the church could save $XX million in utility costs a year, plus more printing sales of the home study publications. Garment changes? Wendy complaining plus sales for Beehive Clothing?
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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by Random » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:03 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:08 pm
President Nelson is just legacy building.
I think this is exactly what he's doing, and he's got the courage to do it.


wakarusa wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:19 am
My question would be, is there any additional change he could make that would be questioned as heretical or leading the church to apostasy? Or could he basically get away with anything at this point?
I think he could get away with a lot. The general authorities are trained to defer to the guys up the food chain from them. Unless he did something seriously strange or different (suddenly announce gay people could get sealed in the temples, but if it came about slower, he could probably get away with it), I think he could do pretty much anything.

It's okay to drink coffee and tea if it isn't too hot? Check.
Garments are only to be worn during the temple rites, and are up to the member if they wear them during daily life? Check.
Girls can pass the sacrament trays if the deacon boys hand them to them? Check. (Already happening in mothers' rooms in some areas.)
Marriages are civil and only sealings are performed in temples, everywhere (not just in Europe and other select countries)? Check.
and so on.
[They] which knew me from the beginning . . . would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by Random » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:08 pm

I think most of the changes are things that he wants, things that opinion polling has shown them would make them less unpopular, and probably money-saving measures since tithing has drastically dropped.


I wonder if he would ever have more televangelism? I mean, the gen conf twice a year is exactly that, really (and so are stake conferences once a year in places I lived before I resigned). Cut in-person meetings and add a couple more tv meetings.
[They] which knew me from the beginning . . . would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Acts 26:5

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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by Raylan Givens » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:09 pm

The guy probably lives off of kale smoothies and no sugar, still snow skis and still has a full time job that is very taxing (tons of travel). He is also crazy intelligent. He may live to be 120 years old. If this barber can do it, why not the Lord's Anointed? Image

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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by blazerb » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:23 am

wtfluff wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:39 am
Funny: The handbook literally says that white shirts are not required. :roll:
I once pointed this out to our YM president several years ago. The idea of anyone participating in the sacrament without a white shirt was shot down specifically because the bishopric wanted a way for young men to disqualify themselves if they did not feel worthy.

Regarding temple changes, I think RMN may very well have championed them with the urging of DHO. Oaks has given women priesthood authority through his conference talks. I think he sees a need to have women participate more. I don't think he and others in the Q15 took the "hearken" very seriously anyway. They see it as a small change, I believe.

Saying that all these changes are being rushed by the group before RMN becomes incapacitated makes a lot of sense.

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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by moksha » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:46 am

blazerb wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:23 am
The idea of anyone participating in the sacrament without a white shirt was shot down specifically because the bishopric wanted a way for young men to disqualify themselves if they did not feel worthy.
Plus a colored shirt is so much easier to pull off than getting more than one pair of earrings.

Tangential thought - Did you know that at BYU, the young elders are able to express their individuality by wearing colorful ties? Apparently, none of the Brethren have come out and suggested which color and pattern of ties is most pleasing to God.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by alas » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:32 am

moksha wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:46 am
blazerb wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:23 am
The idea of anyone participating in the sacrament without a white shirt was shot down specifically because the bishopric wanted a way for young men to disqualify themselves if they did not feel worthy.
Plus a colored shirt is so much easier to pull off than getting more than one pair of earrings.

Tangential thought - Did you know that at BYU, the young elders are able to express their individuality by wearing colorful ties? Apparently, none of the Brethren have come out and suggested which color and pattern of ties is most pleasing to God.
It isn’t just the young elders. My retired DH has a prized collection of wild, funny, and unusual ties. If the brethren come out with anything saying all men need to do the missionary ties, that is the only thing I can think of that would make him apostasize.

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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by wtfluff » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:00 pm

moksha wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:46 am
Tangential thought - Did you know that at BYU, the young elders are able to express their individuality by wearing colorful ties? Apparently, none of the Brethren have come out and suggested which color and pattern of ties is most pleasing to God.
During my months of lock-down at the (unpaid sales)Minion Training Center (MTC) the MTC president's wife told all the male minions that they couldn't wear yellow or pink ties. Not dignified enough for our sales positions.

As a good minion, myself and other good minions in my district spent much of our "spare time" searching through old ensigns until we found photos of GA's wearing pink and yellow ties. I can't remember if we taped the photos to the MTC Prez's office door, or slid them under. Such rebels we were! :shock:
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Re: The changing face of LDS INC under RMN...why the rush?

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:50 am

moksha wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:43 am
1smartdodog wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:11 am
Hence they can proclaim the most trivial things to be direction from God.
Like when the suggestion was made that deacons wear white shirts and ties when passing the sacrament. Pretty soon it became the official uniform of the priesthood.

Wonder if Wendy and Sherri have any favorite tunes to add to the hymnal?
Image
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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