The case of the diminished, qualified prophecy

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deacon blues
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The case of the diminished, qualified prophecy

Post by deacon blues » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:18 am

On Feb. 14,1835, during the meeting for calling the first 19th century apostles, Joseph told his audience: "that those who went to Zion with a determination to lay down their lives if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord which was nigh--even fifty six years should wind up the scene." (HC:II, p. 182) This is probably what inspired the three witnesses who picked 11 of the twelve apostles, (Joseph insisted his brother William be picked) to bless several of them that they would live until the second coming of Christ. It also inspired missionaries to warn people that the 'this generation' (theirs, not ours) would be the one to see the "coming of the Lord." This seems very clear, like a typical politician, Joseph later (April 1843) downplays this prophecy with these words from Jesus in D&C 130:14-17: "[Joseph] My son, if thou livest till thou art 85 thou shalt see the face of the son of man, therefore let this suffice and trouble me no more on this matter." Joseph then explains that this statement of the Lord could be interpreted in several different ways, but he thinks it might mean that Jesus will come by 1890. Of course, the latter words are canonized in the D&C, the former prophecy is not, and nowadays LDS usually emphasize the later, and conceive various explanations for the former.

The Alleged Fifty-Six-Year Second-Coming Prophecy of Joseph Smith:
An Analysis
Malin L. Jacobs--Found on the apologetic site SHEILDS.

Thus a prophecy is defended. :o
God is Love. God is Truth

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Re: The case of the diminished, qualified prophecy

Post by Palerider » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:51 am

Odd that the Savior/Joseph would use the term "see the face of the Son of Man". According to the history, Joseph saw the Lord's face numerous times.

Maybe he forgot....?

But I'm just nitpicking. 8-)
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"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Re: The case of the diminished, qualified prophecy

Post by Corsair » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:13 am

One of my favorite podcasts is the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe. Their first episode of every year goes over the predictions from publicly known psychics and evaluating if any of them were even slightly accurate. They combine this with predictions from the show hosts and seeing how their wild guesses compare with "professional" psychics.

One guy on the show predicted the Croatia would win the 2018 World Cup. Croatia actually got to the final round before losing to France on July 15. This was the best success that the podcast hosts produced. It was admittedly a pretty good prediction that could have won some serious money in Vegas.

The common themes among the psychic were predictions that were general ("political drama in the U.S."), or likely ("earthquake in a surprising place"). But no one had a specific and falsifiable prediction. Joseph Smith saying "see the face of the Son of Man" was far in the future and easily subject to interpretation ("he saw the face of Jesus through revelation all the time"). This is not the kind of thing that can be used to either prove or disprove that Joseph was a prophet. It's just kind of a dumb thing that makes believers interested, but no one outside the LDS church would care.

Try asking a Mormon about Mohammed's visions of God, or Ellen White's divine revelations, or the inspired pronouncement of Charles Taze Russell. An LDS believer will easily find ways to discount the revelations of anyone else.

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Re: The case of the diminished, qualified prophecy

Post by blazerb » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:32 am

Is this connected to the prophecy that if JS lived to the age of 85 he would see Christ? Wasn't that some of the justification for the manifesto? They just had to fool the US government for a year or so, then the 2nd coming would fix everything. I'll read up on this.

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