WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

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Rob4Hope
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WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by Rob4Hope » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:11 am

Curiosity got me into another book. I saw a youtube video on Machu Piccu and the rock formations. The massive boulders that serve as a foundation are carved and placed without mortar. The rocks placed on top are less accurate and clearly of a lower skill level. What is amazing is that even with today's technology, cutting and placing those base rocks at that altitude would be a MAJOR ordeal! It would require some VERY heavy machinery, some serious roads, and some serious cutting/placing equipment! 100 years ago, I don't think the old USA could have even done it!

Now lets take the Lamanites and Nephites completely off the table here. OK? The BoM has so many holes, it is clearly a work of fiction and is NOT going to come into this discussion from me.

Historically, the Mayan people could not have built this. In fact, it appears there are records left by the Mayans that when they showed up to these places, a lot of this stuff -- these castles and pyramids, etc -- were already there.

With that background, I went and got Graham Hancock's book "Fingerprints of the Gods". Its mostly about archeology, and (speaking for myself), is pretty damn interesting. (just saying).

I'm to the part where he is talking about ice-ages and the absolutely clear historical records of that. You got all kinds of animals that were killed during that time, and fast frozen so that the food in their stomachs didn't even get time to digest. Archeologists can use carbon dating and get some pretty consistent numbers on how long ago this all happened. We are talking about 13,000 years if I get it right.

BUT WAIT!!!!!!!!! According to Bruce McConkie, Joseph Fielding Smith and others, THERE WAS NO DEATH BEFORE ADAM TOOK THE FRUIT!

The more I listen to this, and when I see evidence over and over in archeology of HIGHLY civilized societies--I mean, someone had to build Machu Piccu,...right? -- the more I am totally blow away at how flimsy the LDS theological creation myth really is. In fact, this throws the entire Christian creation myth right out the window.....

Thoughts?

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Corsair
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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by Corsair » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:25 am

Rob4Hope wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:11 am
BUT WAIT!!!!!!!!! According to Bruce McConkie, Joseph Fielding Smith and others, THERE WAS NO DEATH BEFORE ADAM TOOK THE FRUIT!
I think that this idea alone was enough to get "Mormon Doctrine" removed from Deseret Book and out of the correlated history. I only hear this idea from fervent believers who are usually over 50. The idea persists, but apologists continue to sigh and hand wave it away. It's Bruce "speaking as a man" although Bruce and his dwindling cadre of admirers would take deep offense at such an accusation.

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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by Hermey » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:06 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:11 am
Curiosity got me into another book ... You got all kinds of animals that were killed during that time ... In fact, this throws the entire Christian creation myth right out the window.....

Thoughts?
Yup. :lol: I got thoughts....

Image

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Spicy McHaggis
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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by Spicy McHaggis » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:31 pm

This is just one more area where the church painted itself into a corner. From the beginning church leadership and lesson manuals said the same thing, that there was no death until A&E ate the fruit. They still cling to that at times, but they are a lot less vocal about it. Just a few years ago JRH said that he didn't know how, but that A&E were the first humans on earth.

This is actually my biggest shelf item. The church has always taught a literal A&E, in fact the whole plan of salvation doesn't work without a literal A&E, but they clearly did not exist. Without a literal A&E, there is no need for a literal Jesus, etc.

It's a house of cards that crumbles with the first card.

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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:12 pm

Yup, evidence is huge against the bible creation narrative, not just natural history, but just the source material for where those fables came from. Then there is problematic timeline of the populations talked about in the BOM and all the lack of evidence to support what it describes. It's really a smoking gun in my book. Hell, just last summer they found a campsite in the Utah desert that was 14k years old, including firepit and tobacco seeds. Was Moroni smoking some jazz cabbage on his trek across Utah when he dedicated all those temple sites then hauled the plates to NY? Not unless it happened 14k years ago. And he certainly did not have a horse to ride all those miles! Cue the Tapir Back Rider song my Weird Alma.
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deacon blues
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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by deacon blues » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:45 pm

This is a way bigger smoking gun than the Book of Abraham in my opinion. The world we live in did not come to be the way Scripture literalists want to believe, and the LDS leadership is very strong on scriptural literalism. Just Google: "Dallin Oaks and Book of Mormon historicity." The leaders would rather play the "All or Nothing" card, than the "Nuanced Belief" card. I think it is because consciously or subconsciously, they believe they have more power with a Literalist World view.

Then there are the 90% of people really don't care HOW the world came to be. :(
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Hagoth
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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:50 pm

I saw a youtube video on Machu Piccu and the rock formations...

Historically, the Mayan people could not have built this. In fact, it appears there are records left by the Mayans that when they showed up to these places, a lot of this stuff -- these castles and pyramids, etc -- were already there.
[/quote]
Just to clarify, Machu Piccu was built long after the BoM period and after most of the Mayan cities, but there were sites South America long, long before the Inca built anything. There was an entire empire (the Wari) about a thousand years before the Inca and other agricultural societies thousands of years earlier yet, some extending back as early as Sumerian cities. But none of that has anything to do with any apologetic claims about the Book of Mormon. It's all too far south.

What is more interesting to me is when people try to align the BoM with the Maya in mesoamerica (limited geography hypothesis) by claiming that the Maya collapsed at the same time as the Nephite/Lamanites wars. It's true that there was a Maya "collapse" but it happened slowly over hundreds of years, and not all at the same time/same place. In fact, a lot of the Maya just moved to the coast and built new cities, and many of the Mayan cities were still growing long after the BoA destruction. So the new apologetics are trying to say all of this was happening while the BoM narrative was playing out, and somehow all of these millions of people weren't aware of the Nephite wars, the destruction of all of the cities, 3 days of darkness, the visit of Jesus, etc, etc.

Goofy.
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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:56 pm

I use to have scabs on my scalp from head-scratching over this stuff:

The church has taught since its beginning, and it's in our scriptures, that Adam and Eve lived in North America and that the flood wiped out everyone who wasn't on the ark. The Book of Mormon DNA essay admits that the ancestors of the Native Americans were in the Americas at least 15,000 years ago. So how is it that the those other people who the D&C mistook for Lamanites got here be before Adam and Eve? How did they survive the flood?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by jfro18 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:04 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:56 pm
I use to have scabs on my scalp from head-scratching over this stuff:

The church has taught since its beginning, and it's in our scriptures, that Adam and Eve lived in North America and that the flood wiped out everyone who wasn't on the ark. The Book of Mormon DNA essay admits that the ancestors of the Native Americans were in the Americas at least 15,000 years ago. So how is it that the those other people who the D&C mistook for Lamanites got here be before Adam and Eve? How did they survived the flood?
The 6,000 year timeline for Adam and Eve has all but disappeared and replaced with a "You're free to believe however you want in a 6,000 year Adam/Eve, global flood, etc."

This is one of those smoking guns that is really obvious but trying to get a believer to understand is like trying to nail jello to the wall - they can find 100 ways to get around the fact that the church taught in such literal terms the 6,000 year timeline, the global flood, and THE NEED for a global flood to make their story work.

At the start of my faith crisis, DW said she believed in a global flood. The last time we talked about literalness she said she now leans towards a localized flood... which then opens the door to the fact that a localized flood wouldn't get Adam/Eve out of America... which is where you hear the apologetic magic that they took the Mississippi river to get to the ocean which has so many other problems. Every time you get another layer deep, the problems multiply and are really difficult to keep from blowing the whole thing up.

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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by blazerb » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:32 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:04 pm

The 6,000 year timeline for Adam and Eve has all but disappeared and replaced with a "You're free to believe however you want in a 6,000 year Adam/Eve, global flood, etc."

This is one of those smoking guns that is really obvious but trying to get a believer to understand is like trying to nail jello to the wall - they can find 100 ways to get around the fact that the church taught in such literal terms the 6,000 year timeline, the global flood, and THE NEED for a global flood to make their story work.

At the start of my faith crisis, DW said she believed in a global flood. The last time we talked about literalness she said she now leans towards a localized flood... which then opens the door to the fact that a localized flood wouldn't get Adam/Eve out of America... which is where you hear the apologetic magic that they took the Mississippi river to get to the ocean which has so many other problems. Every time you get another layer deep, the problems multiply and are really difficult to keep from blowing the whole thing up.
It's not quite gone. At least in my neck of the woods Gospel Doctrine class emphasized a literal garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, worldwide flood, etc. This was at the beginning of 2018. The old "the flood was the Earth's baptism" got trotted out. It was an eye opener for me. I think this stuff is nuts so I assumed most people at church agree. That was a bad assumption. I made my views known in the least confrontational way I could. It was a crazy class.

I think you're right that most apologists will wave away these teachings, but a lot of the membership has not received the memo. Of course, this is because the leadership never repudiates past teachings unless they can make a claim that they were never taught. I'm thinking of Adam/God or blood atonement where the original sermons are not easily accessible to the average member. It is of prime importance that the authority of the Q15 never gets weakened in the eyes of the membership. So, doctrines that are easily shown to be wrong keep making the rounds. It is also possible that some members of the Q15 still believe these things.

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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by alas » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:57 am

blazerb wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:32 pm
jfro18 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:04 pm

The 6,000 year timeline for Adam and Eve has all but disappeared and replaced with a "You're free to believe however you want in a 6,000 year Adam/Eve, global flood, etc."

This is one of those smoking guns that is really obvious but trying to get a believer to understand is like trying to nail jello to the wall - they can find 100 ways to get around the fact that the church taught in such literal terms the 6,000 year timeline, the global flood, and THE NEED for a global flood to make their story work.

At the start of my faith crisis, DW said she believed in a global flood. The last time we talked about literalness she said she now leans towards a localized flood... which then opens the door to the fact that a localized flood wouldn't get Adam/Eve out of America... which is where you hear the apologetic magic that they took the Mississippi river to get to the ocean which has so many other problems. Every time you get another layer deep, the problems multiply and are really difficult to keep from blowing the whole thing up.
It's not quite gone. At least in my neck of the woods Gospel Doctrine class emphasized a literal garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, worldwide flood, etc. This was at the beginning of 2018. The old "the flood was the Earth's baptism" got trotted out. It was an eye opener for me. I think this stuff is nuts so I assumed most people at church agree. That was a bad assumption. I made my views known in the least confrontational way I could. It was a crazy class.

I think you're right that most apologists will wave away these teachings, but a lot of the membership has not received the memo. Of course, this is because the leadership never repudiates past teachings unless they can make a claim that they were never taught. I'm thinking of Adam/God or blood atonement where the original sermons are not easily accessible to the average member. It is of prime importance that the authority of the Q15 never gets weakened in the eyes of the membership. So, doctrines that are easily shown to be wrong keep making the rounds. It is also possible that some members of the Q15 still believe these things.
I am pretty sure that some members of Q15 still believe this stuff. If I was’t lazy, I could look up conference talks by RMN saying evolution was false and some other shockingly unscientific beliefs considering he is a medical doctor and last time I checked, that was a pretty science based profession.

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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:09 am

alas wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:57 am
If I was’t lazy, I could look up conference talks by RMN saying evolution was false and some other shockingly unscientific beliefs considering he is a medical doctor and last time I checked, that was a pretty science based profession.
Russell M. Nelson, Praise Be To God, April 2012 Conference:
Anyone who studies the workings of the human body has surely “seen God moving in his majesty and power.”18 Because the body is governed by divine law, any healing comes by obedience to the law upon which that blessing is predicated.19

Yet some people erroneously think that these marvelous physical attributes happened by chance or resulted from a big bang somewhere. Ask yourself, “Could an explosion in a printing shop produce a dictionary?” The likelihood is most remote. But if so, it could never heal its own torn pages or reproduce its own newer editions!
And while we're at it, Jeffrey R. Holland, A Promised Land, June 1976 Ensign:
After Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden, they dwelt at a place called Adam-ondi-Ahman, located in what is now Daviess County, Missouri. In that region this first family lived out their days, tilling the soil, tending the flocks, offering sacrifices, and learning the gospel of Jesus Christ from on high...Two generations later the Lord was so pained by that generation “without affection” (Moses 7:33) that he opened the windows of heaven and cleansed the entire earth with water...Such a special place needed now to be kept apart from other regions, free from the indiscriminate traveler as well as the soldier of fortune. To guarantee such sanctity the very surface of the earth was rent. In response to God’s decree, the great continents separated and the ocean rushed in to surround them. The promised place was set apart. Without habitation it waited for the fulfillment of God’s special purposes.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Hagoth
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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:15 am

You simply cannot sweep the Garden of Eden and the Fall under the rug. The entire LDS plan falls apart without it. Without a literal fall of Man the atonement makes no sense, and neither does the temple.

We are in a fascinating time when members are stuck between what their prophets and leaders, and their scriptures, have actually said, and where science, common sense, and LDS apologist are leading them. The leadership will not denounce the teachings of their predecessors (and themselves, as seen in the previous post). Instead they will, through talks, articles, and essays try to cover all of the bases very shallowly so they can fall back to any position that works for the moment in hand. And they will never put themselves in a position where they have to debate or defend their statements.
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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by hiding in plain sight » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:48 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:15 am
You simply cannot sweep the Garden of Eden and the Fall under the rug. The entire LDS plan falls apart without it. Without a literal fall of Man the atonement makes no sense, and neither does the temple.

We are in a fascinating time when members are stuck between what their prophets and leaders, and their scriptures, have actually said, and where science, common sense, and LDS apologist are leading them. The leadership will not denounce the teachings of their predecessors (and themselves, as seen in the previous post). Instead they will, through talks, articles, and essays try to cover all of the bases very shallowly so they can fall back to any position that works for the moment in hand. And they will never put themselves in a position where they have to debate or defend their statements.
But Hagoth. These are all just secondary questions.

If you just focus on knowing that God exists and that Joseph Smith was a prophet as your primary questions.

It doesn't really matter than any truth claims Joseph taught about the garden of eden being in Missouri or that the temporal existence of the earth is 6,000 years were actually untrue.

How are you doing my friend?

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Hagoth
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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:42 am

hiding in plain sight wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:48 am
But Hagoth. These are all just secondary questions.
Yeah, but they are the components that make up the primary questions. How can something be true if all of its components are false?
not
New thought about the question of God: next time you're asked "do you believe in the godhead?" a viable answers is, "not as presently constituted."
hiding in plain sight wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:48 am
How are you doing my friend?
I'm doing great, how about you? It's always a treat to have you drop by. I hope you'll give us an update sometime. Also, lunch if you ever find yourself in town.
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Dravin
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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by Dravin » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:15 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:15 am
You simply cannot sweep the Garden of Eden and the Fall under the rug. The entire LDS plan falls apart without it. Without a literal fall of Man the atonement makes no sense, and neither does the temple.
Yep, beyond the obvious (the need for Jesus to fix the Fall), the doctrine of the subordination of women being a consequence/punishment of the events in the garden falls apart. Of course I'm sure it'd persevere somehow given AoF 2 never slowed it down any despite it being a direct repudiation of the concept.
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by slavereeno » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:52 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:42 am
New thought about the question of God: next time you're asked "do you believe in the godhead?" a viable answers is, "not as presently constituted."
This has been on my mind recently, because when Mormon leadership asks "Do you believe in God" its a really loaded question. What they really mean is "Do you believe in God as we define him and control him. Also, do you believe in all the excuses we make for God to make our theology work?"

IF a Mormon leader is asking the question the answer is "Nope", if a normal human being is asking the question in a philosophical way, the answer is "Maybe, depends on what you mean by God."

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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by wtfluff » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:05 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:52 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:42 am
New thought about the question of God: next time you're asked "do you believe in the godhead?" a viable answers is, "not as presently constituted."
This has been on my mind recently, because when Mormon leadership asks "Do you believe in God" its a really loaded question. What they really mean is "Do you believe in God as we define him and control him. Also, do you believe in all the excuses we make for God to make our theology work?"
Oh yeah. I guess when a mormon asks, you can turn the question around on them and ask: "Do you mean Elohim / aka 'Mormon God?' "

Or another reply is: "Which God? Zeus? Ra? Vishnu? Dumbledore? Allah? Elohim? Any one of the other thousands of deities that humans have invented?"
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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deacon blues
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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by deacon blues » Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:29 pm

My perception is the LDS leaders believe in a God who lacks humility and/or meekness: ie. the Church. They like large buildings and large gatherings.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Hagoth
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Re: WOW. The natural history sure blows holes in LDS Theology!

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:15 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:05 pm
Or another reply is: "Which God? Zeus? Ra? Vishnu? Dumbledore? Allah? Elohim? Any one of the other thousands of deities that humans have invented?"
Or say, "yes, in fact, I believe in all of them. Mention the ones listed above and add, "and even all of the baby and toddler gods that Joseph Smith told us are out there."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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