Thoughts on Human Origins

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moksha
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Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by moksha » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:34 pm

Basically, there are two species of humans that inhabit our planet.

1. Homo Sapiens - A group that originated in Africa as the product of an evolutionary process.

2. Homo Mormoniens - A group that originated in Missouri as a product of divine cloning.

What more do we know of these two groups and their interactions?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:40 am

I recently discovered that crocodiles share more dna commonality with birds than other reptiles. Evolution proven.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:51 pm

Actual Homo Mormoniens are on the endangered species list, both because they are under intense environmental strain and because most Mormoniens deny or refuse to identify with Homo anything.
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2bizE
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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by 2bizE » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:22 pm

I honestly don’t know what to think. I mean the homomormons are a unique race.
I don’t believe in the Adam theory. I don’t fully believe in evolution either. I think science leaves enough room to develop new theories. We know science will change. We know people lived thousands of years before Adam and Eve, whovreally didn’t exist anyway. Did humans evolve from monkeys? I’m not there yet, but I do believe in some species evolution.
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deacon blues
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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by deacon blues » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:47 pm

2bizE wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:22 pm
I honestly don’t know what to think. I mean the homomormons are a unique race.
I don’t believe in the Adam theory. I don’t fully believe in evolution either. I think science leaves enough room to develop new theories. We know science will change. We know people lived thousands of years before Adam and Eve, whovreally didn’t exist anyway. Did humans evolve from monkeys? I’m not there yet, but I do believe in some species evolution.
I like this. :D I wonder if there is a "religion gene, or combination of genes that make a person more susceptible to religion? Just like my hair color is different from my brother and sisters, my religion genes are also different from them.
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dogbite
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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by dogbite » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:03 pm

Homo mormonensis is a fleck of history introduced in the apfosssil record by Satan to deceive us.

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Hagoth
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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:30 pm

2bizE wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:22 pm
Did humans evolve from monkeys? I’m not there yet, but I do believe in some species evolution.
To be fair, evolution doesn't say that humans evolved from monkeys, it says we evolved from a common ancestor. The evidence is overwhelming and there's no other competing evidence.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Palerider
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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by Palerider » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:34 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:30 pm
2bizE wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:22 pm
Did humans evolve from monkeys? I’m not there yet, but I do believe in some species evolution.
To be fair, evolution doesn't say that humans evolved from monkeys, it says we evolved from a common ancestor. The evidence is overwhelming and there's no other competing evidence.
I wish I understood better how this is supposed to work....

If you have two branches of primates coming from a common ancestor, shouldn't there be a plentiful archeological/fossil supply of the evolving homosapien specie?

Genetically speaking we are supposedly most closely related to chimps and bonobos. So wouldn't that common ancestor have to look or be more primitive than chimps? Wouldn't homosapiens have had to go through a "chimp-like period"?

So you would have one genetic line that evolved from the more primitive "common ancestor" only as far as the chimpanzee that we see today and another sister genetic line that mutates like crazy becoming human.

How does that work? Is that evolutionary change promoted by stressors and natural selection in the environment? Because supposedly both homosapiens and chimpanzees come out of a common African environment. One item mentioned in the following article actually makes me wonder if it's possible that two branches of homosapiens actually evolved; one out of Africa and the other out of Europe or Asia.

See article below.

"Apes were still flourishing in Europe as well as Africa 13 million years ago, which means that in principle the LCA (last common ancestor) might have lived there."

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170517 ... s-and-apes
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alas
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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by alas » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:48 am

Palerider wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:34 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:30 pm
2bizE wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:22 pm
Did humans evolve from monkeys? I’m not there yet, but I do believe in some species evolution.
To be fair, evolution doesn't say that humans evolved from monkeys, it says we evolved from a common ancestor. The evidence is overwhelming and there's no other competing evidence.
I wish I understood better how this is supposed to work....

If you have two branches of primates coming from a common ancestor, shouldn't there be a plentiful archeological/fossil supply of the evolving homosapien specie?

Genetically speaking we are supposedly most closely related to chimps and bonobos. So wouldn't that common ancestor have to look or be more primitive than chimps? Wouldn't homosapiens have had to go through a "chimp-like period"?

So you would have one genetic line that evolved from the more primitive "common ancestor" only as far as the chimpanzee that we see today and another sister genetic line that mutates like crazy becoming human.

How does that work? Is that evolutionary change promoted by stressors and natural selection in the environment? Because supposedly both homosapiens and chimpanzees come out of a common African environment. One item mentioned in the following article actually makes me wonder if it's possible that two branches of homosapiens actually evolved; one out of Africa and the other out of Europe or Asia.

See article below.

"Apes were still flourishing in Europe as well as Africa 13 million years ago, which means that in principle the LCA (last common ancestor) might have lived there."

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170517 ... s-and-apes
There s a fossil record in Africa going from very chimp like “things,” that are not even homo like at all. You look at the fossilized bones and you say “chimp” but then on closer examination, it is slightly closer to humans than a chimp. There is one they are calling “little foot” the seems to be a for runner to the one they called Lucy. And there was an article recently saying that they have the “missing link” which they defined years ago as a fossil that is truly half way between human and ape. So, the fossil record is there and it is in Africa. But then there were early migrations out of Africa that evolved into the human like Neanderthal, the Denisovian, and they say there is a third according to DNA evidence. So, they have the fossil record that shows that man evolved from a common ancestor of apes, and those fossils all come out of Africa.

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moksha
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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by moksha » Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:33 am

This photo of a Bonobos mother and child certainly does not meet BYU standards of propriety and it might be argued by religious stalwarts that it had been planted in the photographer's camera by satan, but it does show why some believe there is a common past ancestor between that species and Homo Sapiens. Since that common ancestor, both species have gone on to develop their own traits, while the common past ancestor was beamed up to Kolob, with twinkling of an eye technology, for genetic intelligent design purposes.

https://gwtoday.gwu.edu/sites/g/files/z ... k=xAxjKstH
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by dogbite » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:10 am

Palerider wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:34 pm
So wouldn't that common ancestor have to look or be more primitive than chimps? Wouldn't homosapiens have had to go through a "chimp-like period"?
There is a misconception in that statement. Evolution doesn't have a direction, necessarily, no end goal. Greater development isn't necessarily advantageous. That chimps and bonobos and humans are related is evidence of this. Successful reproduction at a rate to perpetuate the species is all that's nececssary. There are very simple things still alive today as they were successful as they were.

The Hagfish has simplified even losing its backbone even though its fore runners had it.

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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:40 am

Palerider wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:34 pm

If you have two branches of primates coming from a common ancestor, shouldn't there be a plentiful archeological/fossil supply of the evolving homosapien specie?
There is a lot of evidence further down the road, but if the fossil record of earlier development has told us anything it's that things were messy and there were a lot of dead-ends. The idea of the path from artepithecus-grade hominids to erectus-grade hominids that you see in the famous poster of discrete changes from chimp to ape-man to sapiens to guy-sitting-at-a-computer is not sustainable. The discovery of hominids like homo Naledi tell us that there were a lot of varieties walking around in Africa at the same time, and now we're seeing more evidence that they may have been wandering out much earlier than was previously thought. And, sure, there was evolution going on wherever these kinds of critters roamed. Neanderthal appears to have evolved from erectus-grade hominins outside of Africa. The old idea that it was a direct path requires you to think that evolution had a destination in mind and that it was a set of falling dominoes intended to create Donald Trump or Miley Cyrus. Evolution is a step-by-step process that has no goal in mind beyond just allowing genes that help an individual survive in the moment to pass on those genes.

A lot of people say that concept is completely at odds with the idea of God. I don't think anything could be further from the truth, depending on your concept of God. If God is a wonderful creative force that allows for a kaleidoscope of fantastic possibilities and an endless proliferation of life, I think all of this fits very well. If your idea of God is a guy with human passions sitting on a throne, who just wants to make little models of himself to boss around, maybe not so well.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Linked
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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by Linked » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:06 pm

Palerider wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:34 pm
I wish I understood better how this is supposed to work....

If you have two branches of primates coming from a common ancestor, shouldn't there be a plentiful archeological/fossil supply of the evolving homosapien specie?

Genetically speaking we are supposedly most closely related to chimps and bonobos. So wouldn't that common ancestor have to look or be more primitive than chimps? Wouldn't homosapiens have had to go through a "chimp-like period"?

So you would have one genetic line that evolved from the more primitive "common ancestor" only as far as the chimpanzee that we see today and another sister genetic line that mutates like crazy becoming human.

How does that work? Is that evolutionary change promoted by stressors and natural selection in the environment? Because supposedly both homosapiens and chimpanzees come out of a common African environment. One item mentioned in the following article actually makes me wonder if it's possible that two branches of homosapiens actually evolved; one out of Africa and the other out of Europe or Asia.

See article below.

"Apes were still flourishing in Europe as well as Africa 13 million years ago, which means that in principle the LCA (last common ancestor) might have lived there."

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170517 ... s-and-apes
For a good basis on paleoanthropology there is a free course on EdX called Human Origins. It is an 8 week online course taught by Donald Johanson, the guy who discovered a missing link, "Lucy". Since his discovery there have been many more. Lucy was an Australopithecus afarensis; Austalopithicus species walked upright, but did not appear to be tool makers. Part of the course discusses how the thing that sets us apart from apes the most is probably our big toe and pelvis rather than our brain (though our brain is pretty unique too). The big toe and pelvis are adaptations for efficient upright walking/running; humans are among the best long distance runners in the animal kingdom. We may not be the strongest or fastest but we can keep running for a long time.

Homo sapiens are not the only homonids to ever walk upright, there were many in the past based on the fossil record, but they are all gone now. Homo florensis, Homo neanderthalensis, Homo erectus (ancestors of Homo sapiens from ~1 mya), Homo habilis, Homo denisova, etc. They were out-competed or out right killed by our ancestors. Humans are really good at making things go extinct.

As others have said, there were multiple migrations of Homo species out of Africa, some of those went on to diverge into a different species than those that stayed in Africa.
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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by Mad Jax » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:21 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:40 am
A lot of people say that concept is completely at odds with the idea of God. I don't think anything could be further from the truth, depending on your concept of God. If God is a wonderful creative force that allows for a kaleidoscope of fantastic possibilities and an endless proliferation of life, I think all of this fits very well. If your idea of God is a guy with human passions sitting on a throne, who just wants to make little models of himself to boss around, maybe not so well.
You might be interested in this. This is one of the best thought out ideas of how the science of evolution fits nicely with the creation story that I've ever heard. I still don't accept the bible, but I found the video worthwhile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwnerL8M1pE
Free will is a golden thread flowing through the matrix of fixed events.

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Hagoth
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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by Hagoth » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:48 pm

Mad Jax wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:21 am

You might be interested in this. This is one of the best thought out ideas of how the science of evolution fits nicely with the creation story that I've ever heard. I still don't accept the bible, but I found the video worthwhile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwnerL8M1pE
Thanks Jax. I enjoy hearing religious people who are able to be more openminded about science-friendly possibilities. Where I take exception is that all of nature exists to produce Christians. I don't believe most of the Bible either. I'm more interested in progressive concepts of God in light of science and evidence, rather than in trying to hammer evolution into the Bible. The idea that life emerged from primal matter and forces of nature is such an astonishingly, mindboggling cool concept that, if true, is at least as awe inspiring to me as a magical superman performing mouth-to-mouth on lumps of clay.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by Just This Guy » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:12 am

I don't consider myself Christian any more and I am undecided about the existence of a god or creator.

One thing fascinates me though is Entropy. Entropy is not something that actually exists nor is it something that could actually be measured. It is a purely hypothetical thing. However, it is something that is needed to make the math in a number of physics and engineering equations work out. It is the only thing known to science and engineering that works, so it is taken to be something that exists when in fact it does not.

At its root, entropy is a 'measure' of how much internal disorder, randomness, or chaos there is in a given system. This thing about it is that overtime, entropy always increases. Things go form organized on a molecular/atomic level to disorganized. By that, eventually everything will disintegrate and de-evolve.

The problem is that evolution by it's nature is the development of move complex things from simple things over time. Organisms change over time to better make use of their environment. This by definition works against entropy. According to entropy, life should not exist, but here we are. I have not been able to resolve this. maybe there is a god that is causing things to develop when they shouldn't. Maybe there is some fundamental property of the universe that we don't understand and are missing. I don't know.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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moksha
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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by moksha » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:36 am

Just This Guy, the Wikipedia states it this way: "In biological systems (among others), energy inputs from other energy sources (including the Sun and exothermic chemical reactions) are "coupled" with reactions that are not entropically favored (i.e. have a Gibbs free energy above zero). Taking into account the coupled reactions, the total entropy in the universe increases. This coupling allows endergonic reactions, such as photosynthesis and DNA synthesis, to proceed without decreasing the total entropy of the universe. Thus biological systems do not violate the second law of thermodynamics."
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Mad Jax
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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by Mad Jax » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:16 pm

Yep. A good way of simplifying down what Moksha states is to just think of 2LoT as applying only to closed systems. Which the earth, at least, is not.
Free will is a golden thread flowing through the matrix of fixed events.

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alas
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Re: Thoughts on Human Origins

Post by alas » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:01 pm

Or in layman terms, entropy applies if no positive pressure is applied. Where pressure is applied, it can more than counter act the entropy. The pressure is survival and passing down DNA. The entropy would be random mutations. If not for survival and passing on DNA, life forms would mutate themselves out of existence. But things are balanced such that mutations are relatively rare and rarer still are bennificial mutations. Those non bennificial mutation often kill the offspring outright, so are not passed on. A few non harmful or only slightly harmful mutation will get passed on, thus we have things like the mutation that causes bleeders disease that get passed on. Bleeders disease is an interesting mutation because we can trace it to one woman who was a carrier and apparently the mutation started with her. Queen somebody or other. So, since the prince of one country was marred to the princess of another, this disease was a disease of the royal families. But it makes bleeding to death a real possibility. So, it tends to kill those who inherit it. Without modern medicine to make the blood clot, this mutation would probably have illuminated itself from the gene pool. This is how evolution works to eliminate those mutations that are not good, thus counteracting entropy. Good mutations that give the individual a breeding advantage, tend to get passed on, thus increasing their occurrence in the gene pool. Over time, this force of passing on good mutation and reducing bad mutations causes evolution. It over comes entropy.

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