New Gospel Topics Essay - BOM Geography

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Looks like the Church is finally trying to address the Meldrum Geography problem.
Same old position of neutrality.

https://www.lds.org/study/manual/gospel ... -geography

[Rob4Hope]

Bahahahahahahah!!!!



The church with Prophets...and having a MAJOR scripture...and it came out of no-where!....

BAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[Yobispo]

Ahem... (raising my hand) Ummmm.... Teacher? I have a question. Can you tell us the story of Zelph the White Lamanite who was known from the Rockies to the Sea? Or how about the story of Moroni burying the plates in the Hill Cumorah in New York State? Or, I know, this is a favorite, the time Joseph sent missionaries to the Lamanites in Missouri?

Seriously, "No position"? They're so full of it it's getting silly.

[hiding in plain sight]

Its' tough to have a position when taking that position would show that you are completely wrong.

The poor leaders are in a no win situation. I am so glad I don't have to defend the indefensible any more.

[Red Ryder]

Looks more like a gospel topic paragraph than an essay.

This language sounds very familiar.

Although Church members continue to discuss such theories today, the Church takes no position on the geography of the Book of Mormon except that the events it describes took place in the Americas.

Compare that to the race and the priesthood language.

Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.

[RubinHighlander]

The Church takes no position on the specific geographic location of Book of Mormon events in the ancient Americas. Church members are asked not to teach theories about Book of Mormon geography in Church settings but to focus instead on the Book of Mormon’s teachings and testimony of Jesus Christ and His gospel.

Well that's a real kick in the peter priesthood for one of my old ward brothers who worked for BYU's anthropology department. He was a real zealot about South America findings to support the BOM. He would often bring slides from his adventures to try and convince us that there was probably a temple under than mound of moss. I wonder how much more funding will be allowed for efforts to find those swords, chariots and horse bones.

[slavereeno]

Wow that was a lot of words to say absolutely nothing.

[RubinHighlander]

[Sheamus Moore]

Funny how the story changes. I remember, as a kid, being at Expo ‘74 (Spokane Worlds Fair) and visiting the Mormon pavilion where they were running the ‘Ancient America Speaks’ film on a loop. My dad became fascinated with all of the ‘evidence’ - had a big coffee table book about it, though I have no recollection of the title now. The focus, of course, was on Central & SA.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0423820/

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/01/news ... 4?lang=eng

[Anon70]

Is this new? I hadn’t seen it before.

I remember return missionaries from New York telling stories of farmers digging up arrowheads and weapons all over that area..... I mean that’s what they were told. They never actually saw them.

[jfro18]

There was a guy a while back who was randomly tossing out quotes from church leaders over the years about how the Hill Cumorah in NY was the same one as in the BoM.

At one point I had started compiling that list because it was not just Joseph Smith saying it - almost every church leader was saying it at some point until we had the technology (and common sense) to know that no large battles could have taken place there.

This reminds me of the DNA issues- the church takes no position now because every position they took in the past was proven wrong. And at some point you either have to keep taking easily disproven theories, or you have to just shrug and say "We don't know for sure but it will all work out in the end."

[RubinHighlander]

Funny how the story changes. I remember, as a kid, being at Expo ‘74 (Spokane Worlds Fair) and visiting the Mormon pavilion where they were running the ‘Ancient America Speaks’ film on a loop. My dad became fascinated with all of the ‘evidence’ - had a big coffee table book about it, though I have no recollection of the title now. The focus, of course, was on Central & SA.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0423820/

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/01/news ... 4?lang=eng

Oh boy, yeah I remember that movie. We had a filmstrip version we showed sometimes on the mish. I wanted that evidence to be true so badly! It was like one of the few hopes I had to buoy up the BOM to be more credible. It was even on my bucket list to go on one of those tours to S. America to the ruins.

[Hagoth]

Pretty sad that prophets can't get any kind of handle on the location of the book of literal history that they claim as the keystone of their religion. Especially when they put such heavy demands on all of their members to believe, and even "know" that it is literal.

So what good are they?

[Hagoth]

...the Church takes no position on the geography of the Book of Mormon except that the events it describes took place in the Americas...

"...but don't be surprised if at some point we announce that they took place on Mars, because we have just as much conclusive evidence for that."

[Reuben]

...the Church takes no position on the geography of the Book of Mormon except that the events it describes took place in the Americas...

"...but don't be surprised if at some point we announce that they took place on Mars, because we have just as much conclusive evidence for that."

Alternate universe. Explains everything.

[Hagoth]

The internal consistency of these descriptions is one of the striking features of the Book of Mormon.

This is another "miracle" of the Book of Mormon that's a big pile of nothing. All it says is that the guy who wrote it had a mental map of where his story played out. The Lord of the Rings and thousands of other fantasy stories have equally consistent internal consistency. They must be true.

Also,

There are a number of prophets who have said the Nephites lived in North America, that the hill near Palmyra is the one and only Cumorah, etc. I don't think there has ever been a prophet of the church say the Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica. The problem is Mesoamerica is the only place with a snowball's chance in hell of supporting anything like the societies described in the BoM, so it's a big, ugly pill that the apologists HAVE to swallow somehow.

But really. A land northward and a land southward separated by an isthmus that you can walk across in a single day; Lots of bodies of water up north and a large arid region north of the isthmus where people build with cement (adobe). This is describing the American hemisphere. Both continents. No one questioned it until they realized that the math didn't add up (same reason they needed "other" people - could it be that math wasn't one of Joseph's talents?) The bad math isn't evidence for a Mesoamerican model, it's a serious problem for the whole enchilada.

It's the standard apologetic redefining of terminology (e.g. translate = receive by revelation):
-Narrow neck of land that you can cross in a day = wide body of land that takes several days to cross.
-North = East

[jfro18]

I would love for the church to explain why there are no mentions of city names in the part of the Book of Mormon that Joseph Smith had to replace w/ the 116 pages... and why he went to such great lengths to avoid giving directions and info about where they were. Would seem important for the beginning of a book about traveling to a new land to begin the greatest religion of all time.

From the Tanners: "It is very interesting to note that Nephi never referred to the place where he and his people lived as a "city," and he did not name even one Nephite or Lamanite city! Before he came to the New World, Nephi spoke of the "city" Jerusalem six times and referred to "the city of Nazareth" two times, but after he came to the New World, he was completely silent with regard to the names of New World cities. As a matter of fact, none of the other writers who followed Nephi through the black hole period mentioned the name of any city. Mosiah 7:1 is the first place that we find the name of a city: "...king Mosiah... was desirous to know concerning the people who went up to dwell in the land of Lehi-Nephi, or in the city of Lehi-Nephi...""

[græy]

There seems to be a bunch of new essays creeping up. No dates, no announcements. Don't spread the word, we wouldn't want people to actually discuss these things!

Edit to add headings to the links. Formatting cut off the part that actually showed what they are about...

Masonry:
https://www.lds.org/study/history/topic ... y?lang=eng

CoFifty:
https://www.lds.org/study/history/topic ... y?lang=eng

Fanny Alger:
https://www.lds.org/study/history/topic ... r?lang=eng

Kinderhook:
https://www.lds.org/study/history/topic ... s?lang=eng

Lamanite Idenitity:
https://www.lds.org/study/history/topic ... y?lang=eng

[oliblish]

There seems to be a bunch of new essays creeping up. No dates, no announcements. Don't spread the word, we wouldn't want people to actually discuss these things!

Edit to add headings to the links. Formatting cut off the part that actually showed what they are about...

Masonry:
https://www.lds.org/study/history/topic ... y?lang=eng

CoFifty:
https://www.lds.org/study/history/topic ... y?lang=eng

Fanny Alger:
https://www.lds.org/study/history/topic ... r?lang=eng

Kinderhook:
https://www.lds.org/study/history/topic ... s?lang=eng

Lamanite Idenitity:
https://www.lds.org/study/history/topic ... y?lang=eng

There are lots more of them in addition to the ones listed above. I have found most of them are very brief and watered down.

Also, they don't seem to be available on the standard LDS.org site right now. The links above take you to a beta version of the site. I have found that I can read them on a Chrome browser, but when I try Internet Explorer I just get an error.

Once you get to one of the history essays, there is a long list of other topics in the left margin to get to the others. Here is what is listed just for A-B:

Church History Topics

Adam-ondi-Ahman
Amanda Barnes Smith
American Indians
American Legal and Political Institutions
Angel Moroni
Anointed Quorum (“Holy Order”)
Awakenings and Revivals
Baptism for the Dead
Bishop
Book of Abraham Translation
Book of Commandments
Book of Mormon Translation

[StarbucksMom]

The essay on Fanny........Holy crap. I can’t even....

It needs it’s own thread.