Why are we even having this conversation?

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Hagoth
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Re: Why are we even having this conversation?

Post by Hagoth » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:46 am

Palerider wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:40 am
But God works with imperfect, nasty, sinful, power-hungry, narcissistic people....right?
OK, there's the other aspect of this that drives me crazy. On the one hand we're supposed to Give Brother Joseph a Break™ because he was only human, a weak thing of the world, etc. That suggests that he was sinning when he did those things, but that we should be charitable and overlook them because he balanced it out with all of the great things he did. BUT, out of the other side of the institutional mouth, we are told that he was such a purely moral person that he refused to get involved in polygamy until God sent an angel to kill him if he didn't get with the program. In this version Joseph was not weak and human, he was morally defiant even in the face of God himself. God wanted him to marry those kids so badly that he was willing to risk his entire plan by killing the guy who he had ordained to bring it about. So do we give him a break for his infidelity or admire him for his moral stalwartness?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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jfro18
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Re: Why are we even having this conversation?

Post by jfro18 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:17 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:46 am
Palerider wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:40 am
But God works with imperfect, nasty, sinful, power-hungry, narcissistic people....right?
OK, there's the other aspect of this that drives me crazy. On the one hand we're supposed to Give Brother Joseph a Break™ because he was only human, a weak thing of the world, etc. That suggests that he was sinning when he did those things, but that we should be charitable and overlook them because he balanced it out with all of the great things he did. BUT, out of the other side of the institutional mouth, we are told that he was such a purely moral person that he refused to get involved in polygamy until God sent an angel to kill him if he didn't get with the program. In this version Joseph was not weak and human, he was morally defiant even in the face of God himself. God wanted him to marry those kids so badly that he was willing to risk his entire plan by killing the guy who he had ordained to bring it about. So do we give him a break for his infidelity or admire him for his moral stalwartness?
This is what drives me so insane about the whole argument... they want it both ways and it just doesn't work that way.

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Not Buying It
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Re: Why are we even having this conversation?

Post by Not Buying It » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:01 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:06 am
Now, I'm not stupid to think that this strategy might actually succeed in the short run, but I can tell you, that my immediate circle knows more of the problems of church history, church culture and the practices of the modern corporate church than they ever had before. And it leads to conversations with my extremely TBM spouse that I thought never would happen, that I will report on in the relationship section. So while I get the angst of the essays, they have been a godsend to me. Truly.
I agree that they can be a godsend, if they eventually lead our loved ones to accept the truth. But to the extent they succeed in inoculating our loved ones from the truth - which is exactly what they are designed to do - they are just spiritual poison administered to our loved ones by the Church propaganda machine to keep them mentally and spiritually enslaved. Yeah, the essays can be a godsend - unless they do what they are supposed to do. They’re a double-edged sword.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Why are we even having this conversation?

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:28 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:01 pm
Mormorrisey wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:06 am
Now, I'm not stupid to think that this strategy might actually succeed in the short run, but I can tell you, that my immediate circle knows more of the problems of church history, church culture and the practices of the modern corporate church than they ever had before. And it leads to conversations with my extremely TBM spouse that I thought never would happen, that I will report on in the relationship section. So while I get the angst of the essays, they have been a godsend to me. Truly.
I agree that they can be a godsend, if they eventually lead our loved ones to accept the truth. But to the extent they succeed in inoculating our loved ones from the truth - which is exactly what they are designed to do - they are just spiritual poison administered to our loved ones by the Church propaganda machine to keep them mentally and spiritually enslaved. Yeah, the essays can be a godsend - unless they do what they are supposed to do. They’re a double-edged sword.
I guess it's just a difference of what we want out of the long game, NBI. I'm just at a point where I'm so apathetic to all things church related, I don't really care if we all stay in until I die, or we all leave eventually. I just don't care anymore. I just don't want them spiritually or mentally abused by the institution, and I don't want to be seen as the enemy or "deceived by Satan" by any of them. And as long as the essays can help me to that end, which they have, I will use them accordingly.

But as I said, I understand the angst of the essays, I really do, and I don't disagree with what you've said here. But taking that kind of hard line doesn't ultimately help me with my family relationships.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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wtfluff
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Re: Why are we even having this conversation?

Post by wtfluff » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:13 pm

Palerider wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:40 am
Mormon leadership tells the members that numerous O.testament patriarchs were commanded by God to take multiple wives which is an out and out lie.
Are we talking about "Biblical Marriage" here?

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