Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

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jfro18
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Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by jfro18 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:43 am

Unbelievable...

Oaks was in my neck of the woods this weekend apparently talking to young spouses about the struggles of being a Mormon in these times, and these paragraphs are just unreal:
He acknowledged that some Latter-Saint couples face conflicts over important values and priorities. Matters of Church history and doctrinal issues have led some spouses to inactivity. Some spouses wonder how to best go about researching and responding to such issues.

“I suggest that research is not the answer,” he said.

The Church does offer answers to many familiar questions through its Gospel Topics Essays found at lds.org.

“But the best answer to any question that threatens faith is to work to increase faith in the Lord Jesus Christ,” he said. “Conversion to the Lord precedes conversion to the Church. And conversion to the Lord comes through prayer and study and service, furthered by loving patience on the part of spouse and other concerned family members.”
You can read the whole article at https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... M4uaF0mqe4

It's amazing how coordinated these attacks on doubts are across the church - have to image we will see a lot of it in April.

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Just This Guy
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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:03 am

Looks like the COB has finally realized that they have a problem, so in typical Mormon methodology, they are throwing everything at it. But also in pure Mormon fashion, they go about it in the complete wrong way and are many years too late to be effective.

I wonder if this is related to RMN taking over? With all the other updates he is doing has he finally given the 'okay' to start addressing this problem? If so that does make you wonder why they have waiting so long to address this. We have evidence that they have known about the issue for over a decade, possibly a lot longer. Is this something that TSM (and maybe GBH) was in denial about and never give the go ahead to start addressing the issue?
Last edited by Just This Guy on Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by Hagoth » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:10 am

jfro18 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:43 am
“I suggest that research is not the answer,” he said.
Oh boy, it's getting almost comical the way they are chasing their tails lately.

Actually, research is the answer, but unfortunately for Brother Oaks and company it's an answer that leads to the actual ANSWER.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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hiding in plain sight
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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by hiding in plain sight » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:26 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:10 am
jfro18 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:43 am
“I suggest that research is not the answer,” he said.
Oh boy, it's getting almost comical the way they are chasing their tails lately.

Actually, research is the answer, but unfortunately for Brother Oaks and company it's an answer that leads to the actual ANSWER.
Reverse psychology is actually an effective tool.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -right-now

Maybe Oaks is secretly a NOM and wants everyone to do their own research and wake up.

Either wise his approach really isn't doing what he thinks it is doing. :-)

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2bizE
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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by 2bizE » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:29 am

So to paraphrase Oaks, he said forget the church for a little bit and just concentrate on Christ.
Actually it’s not too bad of an idea. It is usually the church that has caused a problem not faith in Christ.
~2bizE

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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:00 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:03 am
Looks like the COB has finally realized that they have a problem, so in typical Mormon methodology, they are throwing everything at it. But also in pure Mormon fashion, they go about it in the complete wrong way and are many y ears too late to be effective.

I wonder if this is related to RMN taking over? With all the other updates he is doing has he finally given the 'okay' to start addressing this problem? If so that does make you wonder why they have waiting so long to address this. We have evidance that they have known about the issue for over a decade, possibly a lot longer. Is this something that TSM (and maybe GBH) was in denial about and never give the go ahead to start addressing the issue?
After reading the Faith Crisis Report - Dieter knew they had a problem back in 2013, but I'm guessing all the rest of the old dinghy captains were too hard of hearing to hear him and shoved him in the background when he tried to go public with it in conference by admitting past leaders made mistakes.
https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... t_R24B.pdf

But they did turn on the stove to boil the lobsters in the pot about a year later when they started sneaking the essays out that same year in 2013; their unofficial acknowledgement of the apologetics. They let the seer stone out of the closet in 2015. It would be interesting to put a timeline together of when smart folks began to make the information public, many be Xd for it, then show the corresponding church reaction to the new information to try and nuance it.
Last edited by RubinHighlander on Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:43 am

This is based off memory, but I thought I read about someone made a presentation to the COB back in 2008 that there was a a growth in faith issues from internet sources. Maybe Bill and RFM mentioned it in their last podcast.

It would be logical to assume that if DFU was willing to talk about it in GC in 2013, then they had to know about it before that. That begs the question of how long before hand did he have to fight to be able to do that much.
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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by Palerider » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:04 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:10 am
jfro18 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:43 am
“I suggest that research is not the answer,” he said.
Oh boy, it's getting almost comical the way they are chasing their tails lately.

Actually, research is the answer, but unfortunately for Brother Oaks and company it's an answer that leads to the actual ANSWER.
What a wet Willy.

"I suggest"!?!? Come on....be a man of God. A true prophet, seer and revelator and tell us what the Lord has spoken in your ear.

"Hi Dallin, it's good to see you today. Regarding the devastating faith crisis occurring in my church presently, I suggest we tell the members to ignore their questions about the difficult issues and just concentrate on me. What do you think?......."

These guys are embarrassing... :oops:
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by Rob4Hope » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:10 am

Research is not the answer?

Bahahahahahah!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

More seriously now...

TSCC use to teach that we should seek learning, even by study and by faith. Study of what do you ask? BOOKS! Duh! And, we are supposed to learn about history as well. That's in that same scriptural verse.

And along comes Oaks and discounts the entire doctrine?

Its interesting to me how these guys covertly disavow books like the Doctrine and Covenants.

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Palerider
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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by Palerider » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:14 am

2bizE wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:29 am
So to paraphrase Oaks, he said forget the church for a little bit and just concentrate on Christ.
Actually it’s not too bad of an idea. It is usually the church that has caused a problem not faith in Christ.
In one sense, I would have to agree with him here.

But what they are counting on and hoping for is that members will remember the place where they received their testimony of Christ and come to the conclusion that it must be true because of that. They want the LDS church to be the members' spiritual alma mater.

Which is a fallacy. Millions of people recieve testimonies of Christ outside the LDS faith. Mormon leadership just hopes members don't think that deeply about it.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Palerider
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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by Palerider » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:21 am

Hey doesn't this "research is not the answer" statement directly contradict a recent conference talk where they said members should contact good Mormon "experts" who have the answers and they can alleviate all your concerns? I seem to recall that in a recent conference talk. 🤔
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by Rob4Hope » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:22 am

Palerider wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:14 am
Mormon leadership just hopes members don't think that deeply about it.
Its amazing to me that, with the falling off of convert baptisms (I wonder how big that fall really is?)...the leaders are turning their focus more toward keeping those who are currently in.

Them there numbers ain't looking good are they?.......<<sigh>>

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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:35 am

Palerider wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:21 am
Hey doesn't this "research is not the answer" statement directly contradict a recent conference talk where they said members should contact good Mormon "experts" who have the answers and they can alleviate all your concerns? I seem to recall that in a recent conference talk. 🤔
So maybe he just meant don't waste your time with research, have others do it for you?

In any event, what calculated nonsense, and I'm frankly a little worried. I always told Sis M, from the earliest days of my marriage, that once they started telling me what to read and what to think, I was done. We're getting pretty friggin' close, aren't we? I have a hard time imagining, if the ever optimistic and media-savvy Hinckster was in charge, that the church would be running around in fear over doubts like they have been recently - it's crazy that they are spewing this nonsense, and from a member of the FP, no less. I would love to hear the reaction to this from the audience.
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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:14 am

I wasn't sure where to park this, but it made me laugh out loud and since I had already mentioned the essays herein...

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... effective/

Enjoy!
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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by Hagoth » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:16 pm

2bizE wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:29 am
So to paraphrase Oaks, he said forget the church for a little bit and just concentrate on Christ.
I would suggest that he take his own advice. He might start with the Golden Rule.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by slavereeno » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:46 pm

Increased faith in Christ never pulled me back to the Mormon church though. What does Christ say about, endowments, strict obedience to church leaders, eternal marriage, handing out towels at baptisms for the dead, taking the sacrament only with the right hand, beards, white shirts, wine, dark skin being a curse, polygamy, the ward budget, getting the words perfect in sacrament meeting, stay in the boat, etc. etc.?

As I was transitioning, the more I tried to have faith in Christ, the more I noticed how little Mormons actually talk about Christ. Perfect example, in Fast and Testimony meeting this past week. I don't think Jesus Christ was really talked about at all. The testimonies ended in his name, but nobody talked about Jesus' teachings, parables, or philosophy. Russell M Neslson was mentioned several times, they talked about him a lot, and how he had revealed so much stuff etc. They talked about how true the church was, how true the book of Mormon was, they related some experiences but then nothing about how Christ's teachings helped. They were thankful for families too, which is great but really wasn't about Christ.

Oaks would like the TBM to equate faith in Christ to faith in Mormonism. He can't say "Have faith in us, or have faith in the church" so he says "Have faith in Christ" and the TBM hears "Have faith in the church."

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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by Hagoth » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:03 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:46 pm
Oaks would like the TBM to equate faith in Christ to faith in Mormonism. He can't say "Have faith in us, or have faith in the church" so he says "Have faith in Christ" and the TBM hears "Have faith in the church."
I think you're right. How many times in conference talks when they talk about obeying God or following God's commandments are they really talking about obeying the church and following the commandments of current leaders? Also, paying your tithing to God, doing endowment's in God's temple, etc. Unless they are talking specifically about the life of Jesus they generally seem to be using the names of God and Christ euphemistiaclly to refer to themselves or the institution they represent.
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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by jfro18 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:37 pm

I just can't believe that Oaks told young couples not to research the church for answers.

Oaks is the next in line to be president of the church and just unintentionally told the world that the church can't stand up to scrutiny. It's truly stunning to see... and believing members will never read the story, and if they do they'll never even notice the game he's playing here.

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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by redjay » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:52 pm

So shoving your head up your own ass and feeling the fuzzies seems to end all disputes?!?!?!?
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Re: Dallin Oaks: “I suggest that research is not the answer"

Post by blazerb » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:24 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:35 am
So maybe he just meant don't waste your time with research, have others do it for you?

In any event, what calculated nonsense, and I'm frankly a little worried. I always told Sis M, from the earliest days of my marriage, that once they started telling me what to read and what to think, I was done. We're getting pretty friggin' close, aren't we? I have a hard time imagining, if the ever optimistic and media-savvy Hinckster was in charge, that the church would be running around in fear over doubts like they have been recently - it's crazy that they are spewing this nonsense, and from a member of the FP, no less. I would love to hear the reaction to this from the audience.
I think you're right about what he wants people to hear. I think they want to convey that there is no need for research. "Experts" could answer all the questions if you asked, but there is no need. You should just have faith and pay tithing.

One of the things that hit me when I started letting myself start down the rabbit hole was how different the church that the scholars describe is from the one most members believe in. The Givens, Bushmans, etc. describe a church that would be foreign to most of those I meet with each Sunday. The leaders only want you to go to the scholars as a last resort. If most members heard their message and thought it was approved in Salt Lake, attendance would go down even faster.

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