Patriarch talk

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Patriarch talk

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:30 am

We had the stake patriarch speak last week and his talk was quite interesting from a NOM perspective. He discussed the things patriarchal blessings are and aren't.

When he was finished redefining blessings I thought to myself what a load of gaslighting it was.

Lineage isn't literal blood and genes/ethnicity have nothing to do with it.

It's not a roadmap of life, merely spiritual gifts you should strive for conditional on your faithfulness.

He discussed the office of patriarch of the church and how that no longer exists but didn't mention any reasons why.

The most interesting point however was when he discussed being able to download blessings of deceased relatives and how he had done that with his one progenitor who had one. It of course contained the common phrase of the era that this guy would live to see the son of man.

He of course redefined that promise as being during the millennium and would yet be fulfilled.


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slavereeno
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by slavereeno » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:29 am

This is where they have to go with it. These blessings are appearing more and more uninspired. my son was completely disappointed with his when he compared it to a friend and found that they were almost identical. They can't tell the future and they know it. So now it just has to be this kind of guidance advice thing from an older gentleman that's it.

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jfro18
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by jfro18 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:51 pm

I've seen a few people mention how the patriarch will ask them a few questions beforehand and those details magically find their way into what is otherwise a boilerplate template.

It's yet another one of shelf items for people once they start seeing the bigger picture... and get away from the mindset of "Oh I didn't get this because I just wasn't faithful or good enough."

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Hagoth
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by Hagoth » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:13 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:30 am
Lineage isn't literal blood and genes/ethnicity have nothing to do with it.
I know I have talked about this before, but I am shameless about repeating myself, you know, for the new kids.

When I took my 80-year old father to get his patriarchal blessing I got into a bit an argument with him about this topic. I said something about adoption into the House of Israel and corrected me by insisting that the lineage he proclaims is a literal blood lineage. All the time I'm sitting there with my Chinese wife who, like me, is supposedly an Ephraimite, while her sister is descended from Ham and somehow missed the House of Israel altogether.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Palerider
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by Palerider » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:01 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:13 pm
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:30 am
Lineage isn't literal blood and genes/ethnicity have nothing to do with it.
I know I have talked about this before, but I am shameless about repeating myself, you know, for the new kids.

When I took my 80-year old father to get his patriarchal blessing I got into a bit an argument with him about this topic. I said something about adoption into the House of Israel and corrected me by insisting that the lineage he proclaims is a literal blood lineage. All the time I'm sitting there with my Chinese wife who, like me, is supposedly an Ephraimite, while her sister is descended from Ham and somehow missed the House of Israel altogether.
Wasn't it Joseph Fielding Smith who tried to maintain that once an individual was converted to the church they actually have a literal genetic change take place in their blood that makes them from Ephraim?

But then there was this other view that maintained that there was an admixture of Ephraim among the gentiles and depending on how much Ephraimaic blood you had determined how receptive you were to the gospel.

This all was one of my little shelf items when I was a young man.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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wtfluff
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by wtfluff » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:49 pm

I don't remember much patriarchal blessing talk in the last few years that I was active. Granted it's been 6-7 years since I attended regularly. Are they talking about it more now?

Mormon cold-reading was a big deal in my family of origin. I should probably dig out my psychic reading and read it again. Last time I read it I had a bit of trepidation that it would make me angry, but it actually made me laugh.
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blazerb
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by blazerb » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:46 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:01 pm
But then there was this other view that maintained that there was an admixture of Ephraim among the gentiles and depending on how much Ephraimaic blood you had determined how receptive you were to the gospel.
If Ephraim lived about 3000 years ago, that would be about 100 generations. If each successive generation had about 25% more descendants that the previous one on average, everyone on the planet would be a descendant of Ephraim. Of course we would also all be descended from Ham and any person that people say lived back then. JS and BY did not understand genetics and exponential growth. The notion of "believing blood" is sort of an embarrassment for the church today. Which brings me to why we do not have a presiding patriarch today . . . .

The book Lost Legacy by Irene Bates and Gary Smith is excellent.

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Palerider
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by Palerider » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:33 pm

blazerb wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:46 pm
Palerider wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:01 pm
But then there was this other view that maintained that there was an admixture of Ephraim among the gentiles and depending on how much Ephraimaic blood you had determined how receptive you were to the gospel.
If Ephraim lived about 3000 years ago, that would be about 100 generations. If each successive generation had about 25% more descendants that the previous one on average, everyone on the planet would be a descendant of Ephraim. Of course we would also all be descended from Ham and any person that people say lived back then. JS and BY did not understand genetics and exponential growth. The notion of "believing blood" is sort of an embarrassment for the church today. Which brings me to why we do not have a presiding patriarch today . . . .

The book Lost Legacy by Irene Bates and Gary Smith is excellent.
Well, to be more precise, think in terms of "Ephraim" being the umbrella nomenclature for anyone descending from the lost 10 tribes of Israel. If your math is correct, wouldn't the numbers be astronomical?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Hagoth
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by Hagoth » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:40 pm

These are great points. Kind of like how everyone in Europe is "of royal blood."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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1smartdodog
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by 1smartdodog » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:11 am

Fortune tellers have been around forever. To bad ours turned out to be just as accurate as all the rest.
“Five percent of the people think; ten percent of the people think they think; and the other eighty-five percent would rather die than think.”
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crossmyheart
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by crossmyheart » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:11 am

My mom cultivated a level of worship toward our PB that made us all cling to them like holy scripture.

Then I went to the MTC and roomed with a sister from my same stake. She had grown up in poverty and I came from a well to do family. Her appearance was generally unkempt and she was obese. Our PB were almost identical in all phrases but two areas. Mine had a few sentences indicating I would have bounties so plentiful that I would have enough to share; while hers mentioned nothing about wealth. Mine said I would marry and have children. Hers said she would raise many children by adoption. Not much of a surprise as everyone knew she had already raised her younger siblings due to her family structure and was the only one attending church. She even put off her mission a couple of years to be able to help her younger siblings.

I recall feeling so ashamed to have her read mine and see that they were identical but for promises of wealth, marriage and children for me. I tried to lie about it, but she wanted to see them side by side. We were girls, all reading each others, and giggling about promises of things to come. But I couldn't change the fact that ours were so carbon copy and yet so glaringly different. I never looked at it the same after that- it was evidence of fallibility, of prejudice, and of elitism which added to the weight of my shelf.

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Palerider
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by Palerider » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:37 am

crossmyheart wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:11 am
My mom cultivated a level of worship toward our PB that made us all cling to them like holy scripture.

Then I went to the MTC and roomed with a sister from my same stake. She had grown up in poverty and I came from a well to do family. Her appearance was generally unkempt and she was obese. Our PB were almost identical in all phrases but two areas. Mine had a few sentences indicating I would have bounties so plentiful that I would have enough to share; while hers mentioned nothing about wealth. Mine said I would marry and have children. Hers said she would raise many children by adoption. Not much of a surprise as everyone knew she had already raised her younger siblings due to her family structure and was the only one attending church. She even put off her mission a couple of years to be able to help her younger siblings.

I recall feeling so ashamed to have her read mine and see that they were identical but for promises of wealth, marriage and children for me. I tried to lie about it, but she wanted to see them side by side. We were girls, all reading each others, and giggling about promises of things to come. But I couldn't change the fact that ours were so carbon copy and yet so glaringly different. I never looked at it the same after that- it was evidence of fallibility, of prejudice, and of elitism which added to the weight of my shelf.
Do you suppose this is why the Brethren counsel members not to read each other's PB's?

I would think it creates too many uneasy feelings and questions. The brethren really don't like questions....
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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blazerb
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by blazerb » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:03 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:33 pm
Well, to be more precise, think in terms of "Ephraim" being the umbrella nomenclature for anyone descending from the lost 10 tribes of Israel. If your math is correct, wouldn't the numbers be astronomical?
You're right. From that long ago, we are all descended from everyone who had kids and was not totally isolated. The 10 lost tribes were almost certainly not isolated. Unless they found that hole down to the center of the Earth. ;)

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:36 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:30 am

When he was finished redefining blessings I thought to myself what a load of gaslighting it was.

All the gaslighting lately, the release of all the essays, the talks by the COB attempting to inoculate the youth and shame the unbelievers... is beginning to feel like watering down the truth claims and waterboarding the TBMs. Dare I coin a new cliche term like COBerboarding? Beat the doubters down with guilt, hammer them with enough metaphors they won't go looking for truth.
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1smartdodog
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by 1smartdodog » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:08 pm

crossmyheart wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:11 am
My mom cultivated a level of worship toward our PB that made us all cling to them like holy scripture.

Then I went to the MTC and roomed with a sister from my same stake. She had grown up in poverty and I came from a well to do family. Her appearance was generally unkempt and she was obese. Our PB were almost identical in all phrases but two areas. Mine had a few sentences indicating I would have bounties so plentiful that I would have enough to share; while hers mentioned nothing about wealth. Mine said I would marry and have children. Hers said she would raise many children by adoption. Not much of a surprise as everyone knew she had already raised her younger siblings due to her family structure and was the only one attending church. She even put off her mission a couple of years to be able to help her younger siblings.

I recall feeling so ashamed to have her read mine and see that they were identical but for promises of wealth, marriage and children for me. I tried to lie about it, but she wanted to see them side by side. We were girls, all reading each others, and giggling about promises of things to come. But I couldn't change the fact that ours were so carbon copy and yet so glaringly different. I never looked at it the same after that- it was evidence of fallibility, of prejudice, and of elitism which added to the weight of my shelf.
I found this sobering. Such a class system that exists in the church. We could do better I think
“Five percent of the people think; ten percent of the people think they think; and the other eighty-five percent would rather die than think.”
― Thomas A. Edison

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BriansThoughtMirror
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by BriansThoughtMirror » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:39 am

Wait, you can download relatives' blessings? How do you do that?
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Corsair
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by Corsair » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:25 am

BriansThoughtMirror wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:39 am
Wait, you can download relatives' blessings? How do you do that?
Patriarchal Blessing Request

It takes a few weeks, but I retrieved the blessings of a couple of ancestors, including my mother after she passed. I have not tried to download the blessing of any person who was not a relative, but there are at least minimal safeguards to prevent that. You have to login to your lds.org account so you resigned apostates are out of luck.

Let's be clear that I don't believe that anything really magical is happening with the pronouncement of an LDS patriarchal blessing. I'm pretty sure that Joseph Smith just made up the office so that his father had a position of honor among the believers in the early LDS church. At the same time, I know that the believers hold their blessings sacred and do often make life decisions based on these blessings. This might be either a good or bad thing, but it's likely just a boring thing to keep someone faithful to the LDS church.

However, I at least acknowledge that patriarchal blessings are an influence in the lives of my family members. I simply wanted to understand what influences they were listening to.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:16 am

crossmyheart wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:11 am
Mine had a few sentences indicating I would have bounties so plentiful that I would have enough to share; while hers mentioned nothing about wealth.
Can I borrow $15,000? :lol:
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crossmyheart
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Re: Patriarch talk

Post by crossmyheart » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:41 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:16 am
crossmyheart wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:11 am
Mine had a few sentences indicating I would have bounties so plentiful that I would have enough to share; while hers mentioned nothing about wealth.
Can I borrow $15,000? :lol:
My parents were well to do... but I made the mistake to settle into a career as a civil servant. Still waiting to win the lottery. Problem is that you can't win if you don't play and I never seem to have any $ to play!

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