History Question

[Mad Jax]

Apart from the initial schism at JS' death, have any general authorities ever cracked and fed members the red pill? Not talking 70s, I mean any in the presidency or the Q12. Or have they vetted the true company men that well for 175 years?

[Palerider]

Probably the closest thing to what you're seeking would be the disfellowshipping and excommunication of two apostles when plural marriage was revoked.

Can't immediately remember their names but this should get you started if you feel inclined to research it.

Also they weren't proposing that the church wasn't true, only that it had taken a wrong turn.

The only other GA that comes to mind as truly suspecting the church was false would be B. H. Roberts and he only made Seventy. He was never an apostle.

Perhaps others here can think of someone else but of the top of my head these guys are it.

[Hagoth]

I can't imagine the levels of incentivizing, motivation, intimidation, and ass kissing that must go in to keep those guys pumped up with their majestic self importance. If you think you're being gaslighted, imagine what it would feel like to be a junior apostle who shows signs of slipping out of formation.

Maybe they have a special indoctrination, "I will not divulge the incentives and penalties associated with being one of The Brethren, if I do so I will suffer the life of my first born to be taken."

This is most likely rumor, but I have been told that there is a special accommodation in the UofU mental health facility for General Authority faith crisis time out and re-Neducation. I like to imagine they strap them down in a chair with their eyelids propped open while they give them LDS (a proprietary formulation of LSD) and make them watch The First Vision and It All Started With Thad over and over again for days. Oh, and they shock their balls just to make sure none of the gay creeps in.

[deacon blues]

Tell me what the red pill is please

[Palerider]

Tell me what the red pill is please

I was never big on the Matrix movies, but I believe at one point Neo is offered two pills. One red and one blue.

The red pill brings "reality" and all of it's attributes good and bad. The blue pill sends or keeps him in the false world of the Matrix where there is artificial security and blissful ignorance.

At least that's how I understand it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill

[Mad Jax]

That was my meaning, yes. Palerider's salience is finely tuned.

[moksha]

The red pill brings "reality" and all of it's attributes good and bad. The blue pill sends or keeps him in the false world of the Matrix where there is artificial security and blissful ignorance.

BH Roberts once requested to present his research report on Joseph Smith to the Brethren. The Brethren voted to table the report indefinitely. The report in this instance represented the red pill and tabling the report indefinitely represented the blue pill.

[Rob4Hope]

The red pill brings "reality" and all of it's attributes good and bad. The blue pill sends or keeps him in the false world of the Matrix where there is artificial security and blissful ignorance.

BH Roberts once requested to present his research report on Joseph Smith to the Brethren. The Brethren voted to table the report indefinitely. The report in this instance represented the red pill and tabling the report indefinitely represented the blue pill.

I would be interested in learning more about this. I am aware of B. H. Robert's break with the BoM problems. The guy was trying to exercise at least a certain degree of integrity and was shut down.

Is it possible the Q15 intentionally keep themselves in the dark? Do they also play the "Oh, we have answers for all of that in FARMS"...when in reality, they don't read or study the material themselves, but exude mental laziness in the process?

[2bizE]

Richard Lyman was in the Q12. In 1943 he was excommunicated for cohabitating with another woman. He still felt polygamy was to be done, so he self-sealed himself and his second wife. He did this in 1925 and kept it a secret until 1943. His wife was General RS president at the time, and apparently also kept it a secret.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_R._Lyman

[Palerider]

I would be interested in learning more about this. I am aware of B. H. Robert's break with the BoM problems. The guy was trying to exercise at least a certain degree of integrity and was shut down.

Is it possible the Q15 intentionally keep themselves in the dark?

Oh yeah, it's possible. Here might be a good place to start.

https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-cla ... of-mormon/

[Corsair]

Probably the closest thing to what you're seeking would be the disfellowshipping and excommunication of two apostles when plural marriage was revoked.

Can't immediately remember their names but this should get you started if you feel inclined to research it.

John W. Taylor and Matthias Cowley are who you are looking for. Taylor was the son of the prophet, John Taylor, and he was known as an excellent speaker. But he and Cowley were not oboard with giving up the best(?) parts of Mormonism in exchange for acceptance in the 20th century. In particular, John W. Taylor still considered his apostolic priesthood to be fully intact after his excommunication. Many of the FLDS groups trace their priesthood line of authority back through him.

One amusing side effect of the excommunication of Taylor and Cowley was that a young David O. McKay was ordained as an apostle when they were removed from the quorum. McKay was a monogamist and son of monogamist parents. This was a significant departure for the church. Of course, McKay also served as a beloved prophet for 20 years. He was a charismatic figure that made plenty of friendships with the non-LDS crowd including filmmaker Cecil B. DeMille. It's arguable that McKay dragged the LDS church into the twentieth century during this term as prophet.

[Rob4Hope]

I would be interested in learning more about this. I am aware of B. H. Robert's break with the BoM problems. The guy was trying to exercise at least a certain degree of integrity and was shut down.

Is it possible the Q15 intentionally keep themselves in the dark?

Oh yeah, it's possible. Here might be a good place to start.

https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-cla ... of-mormon/

Yeh...well...I read the quote you supplied. Its pretty sad. Guys like Talmage, who came across as so intelligent and articulate, were imbeciles in following truth. They had to follow the beaten pathway, lest they acknowledge they had been conned, and spent their energy, money and lives perpetuating the same con.

I have a friend or mine who I baptised some 30 years ago coming to SLC this April. I am struggling to see the guy. Why?....because of how awful I feel with my own involvement in perpetuating the con.

[Palerider]

Yeh...well...I read the quote you supplied. Its pretty sad. Guys like Talmage, who came across as so intelligent and articulate, were imbeciles in following truth. They had to follow the beaten pathway, lest they acknowledge they had been conned, and spent their energy, money and lives perpetuating the same con.

Yep.

Anytime you have a distinguished and well educated man like B. H. Roberts tell you the foundation in your house has a huge crack in it and all you can do is stand up and bear your testimony that it has total structural integrity, without even taking a peek in the basement to see what he's talking about......you've got some serious bias problems and valuing truth is not your major concern.

Some people call it living in denial. I have to call it cowardice.

Also, think of what Roberts hoped to gain. He was the great defender of the BofM.

He was hoping for some kind of logical, reasonable, rational answers that would solve the problems. Probably the last thing he wished to do was bring this can of worms before the brethren. But he knew the church would have to defend itself against the charges sooner or later. Better get prepared.

This does not go over well with a men's club that is used to adoration, butt kissing, sucking up and someone telling them "all is well in Zion".

Roberts knew he was walking out on a limb. He's lucky in one way that they allowed him to stay in his position.

[RubinHighlander]

I can't imagine the levels of incentivizing, motivation, intimidation, and ass kissing that must go in to keep those guys pumped up with their majestic self importance. If you think you're being gaslighted, imagine what it would feel like to be a junior apostle who shows signs of slipping out of formation.

I think Dieter felt this after his talk about doubt your doubts and he wasn't even one of the new guys!

"It All Started With Thad" OMG! If watched a dozen times in row, alternating filmstrip with movie, that would be enough to whip any divergent back into the fold! Not be be confused with "What About Thad"
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +with+thad
https://imgur.com/a/4PgOa

[Rob4Hope]

Yeh...well...I read the quote you supplied. Its pretty sad. Guys like Talmage, who came across as so intelligent and articulate, were imbeciles in following truth. They had to follow the beaten pathway, lest they acknowledge they had been conned, and spent their energy, money and lives perpetuating the same con.

Yep.

Anytime you have a distinguished and well educated man like B. H. Roberts tell you the foundation in your house has a huge crack in it and all you can do is stand up and bear your testimony that it has total structural integrity, without even taking a peek in the basement to see what he's talking about......you've got some serious bias problems and valuing truth is not your major concern.

Some people call it living in denial. I have to call it cowardice.

Also, think of what Roberts hoped to gain. He was the great defender of the BofM.

He was hoping for some kind of logical, reasonable, rational answers that would solve the problems. Probably the last thing he wished to do was bring this can of worms before the brethren. But he knew the church would have to defend itself against the charges sooner or later. Better get prepared.

This does not go over well with a men's club that is used to adoration, butt kissing, sucking up and someone telling them "all is well in Zion".

Roberts knew he was walking out on a limb. He's lucky in one way that they allowed him to stay in his position.

This seriously calls into question the credulity of men like Nelson and Oaks. Not to demean the others, but those two guys built their lives on clear thinking that involved careful and meticulous attention to detail. And here they are out there touting the party line--again, without "looking in the basement for the crack."

The only thing I can think of is they are either completely stupid,...and I mean STUPID!,...or they are willingly participating in the con, even if they relegate that participation 'con' to the back or their mind where they can ignore it as best they can. Either way, it freaks me out who is at the helm of TSCC.

[2bizE]

I can't imagine the levels of incentivizing, motivation, intimidation, and ass kissing that must go in to keep those guys pumped up with their majestic self importance. If you think you're being gaslighted, imagine what it would feel like to be a junior apostle who shows signs of slipping out of formation.

I think Dieter felt this after his talk about doubt your doubts and he wasn't even one of the new guys!

"It All Started With Thad" OMG! If watched a dozen times in row, alternating filmstrip with movie, that would be enough to whip any divergent back into the fold! Not be be confused with "What About Thad"
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +with+thad
https://imgur.com/a/4PgOa

I remember using the old still projector on my mission. We mainly showed the one with Christ in America. It would beep when it was time to advance the picture. Technology at its finest.