D&C 132- Question on timeline, methods of revelation, etc...

[jfro18]

As I've been listening to the Jim Bennett/Bill Reel discussion I was thinking about D&C 132 while they discussed it.

I've understood D&C 132 (from a faithful perspective) to be a revelation that Joseph Smith received around 1831 (we know the church needs to say this year because of Fanny Alger) but never wrote it down until Hyrum wanted to take it to Emma to set her straight.

So if I understand correctly, Joseph then dictates the revelation to Hyrum but not a new revelation, but a regurgitation of what he had heard 10 years earlier...

Is this accurate or does the church claim that Joseph actually received an entirely new revelation when giving it to Hyrum?

I ask because if he's simply retelling the revelation to Hyrum that he was given 10 years earlier, doesn't that punch a massive hole in the church's narrative that Joseph Smith couldn't possibly write revelation by himself? I mean if it was from 10 years earlier there's no chance in hell you'd remember the specific wording... yet this is in the voice of God and in the same language as both other D&C revelations and the Book of Mormon.

Just wondering if I'm way off. I'm working in a warehouse today so I can't really do a ton of checking, but it just struck me as I was listening to the podcast... I'm sure I'm wrong or this would've been discussed plenty by critics, but I was under the impression that Joseph simply retold the revelation to Hyrum and not that he received it freshly again.

[Hagoth]

I was under the impression that Joseph simply retold the revelation to Hyrum and not that he received it freshly again.

This seems to be the impression apologists like to give but I don't think there's any support for the claim that Joseph received D&C 132 as a revelation in 1831. The connection is entirely circumstantial. It is necessary because Joseph told missionaries to the "Lamanites" that they could take "Lamanite" women as wives to help accelerate their becoming "white, delightsome and just," according to a letter from W.W. Phelps to Brigham Young, dated August 12, 1861.

The polygamy essay cites testimonies from the 1870s and 80s as their evidence that people remembered that Joseph had received a revelation in 1831. I know of no contemporary source before Hyrum's delivery of the 1843 revelation to Emma that Joseph Smith was commanded by God in the early 1830s to take polygamous wives. If anyone knows otherwise, please set me straight.

[jfro18]

This seems to be the impression apologists like to give but I don't think there's any support for the claim that Joseph received D&C 132 as a revelation in 1831. The connection is entirely circumstantial. It is necessary because Joseph told missionaries to the "Lamanites" that they could take "Lamanite" women as wives to help accelerate their becoming "white, delightsome and just," according to a letter from W.W. Phelps to Brigham Young, dated August 12, 1861.

I agree 100% - I can't find *any* record that Joseph talked about this revelation then and none of the CES Letter rebuttals give it.

I'm just thinking when Joseph gave the revelation to Hyrum, is the claim that he got the revelation then or that he had been given it before and was just reciting it now so Emma could read it? Because I believe that is the case, and if so seems like a significant example that Joseph could recite language like that on command which just happens to match the language used in all other D&C revelations and the BoM as well.

I believe Saints gives that impression - that Hyrum wants to take it to Emma so Joseph just dictates it to him as something he was told years earlier (we know he wasn't) but just never wrote down.

[Reuben]

D&C 132 heading:

Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, evidence indicates that some of the principles involved in this revelation were known by the Prophet as early as 1831.

The plural marriage essay makes a stronger claim:

The revelation on plural marriage was not written down until 1843, but its early verses suggest that part of it emerged from Joseph Smith’s study of the Old Testament in 1831. People who knew Joseph well later stated he received the revelation about that time.[4]

[4] See Andrew Jenson, “Plural Marriage,” Historical Record 6 (May 1887): 232–33; “Report of Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith,” Millennial Star 40 (Dec. 16, 1878): 788; Danel W. Bachman, “New Light on an Old Hypothesis: The Ohio Origins of the Revelation on Eternal Marriage,” Journal of Mormon History 5 (1978): 19–32.

The Andrew Jenson source says only this:

Fanny Alger, one of the first plural wives sealed to the Prophet.

The Report of Elders source says this:

[...] that Joseph actually received revelation upon that principle as early as 1831. Said, "Lyman Johnson, who
was very familiar with Joseph at this early date, Joseph living at his father's house, and who was also very intimate with me, we having travelled on several missions together, told me himself that Joseph had made known to him as early as 1831 that plural marriage was a correct principle. Joseph declared to Lyman that God had revealed it to him, but that the time had not come to teach or practice it in the Church, but that the time would come."

For those keeping track, this is second-hand (or third-hand?) 47 years after the event.

I haven't looked up the JMH citation yet.

Anyway, the church is saying two things: that Joseph knew some of the principles in 1831, and that he received D&C 132 in 1831. There's apparently no evidence of the latter. Heck, if this is the best evidence that polygamy as a religious practice was even on Joseph's radar in 1831, it's extremely thin.

[jfro18]

There's no evidence that Joseph gave any indication of polygamy before the revelation -- they just need to say that because of Fanny.

Second - the only evidence I can find to suggest that Joseph was married to Fanny is a second hand account from 60 years after the fact. There is no record of a marriage and nothing contemporaneously to suggest that.

This is from Saints regarding how D&C 132 came to be:

On the morning of July 12, William Clayton was in Joseph’s office when the prophet and Hyrum entered. “If you will write the revelation,” Hyrum told Joseph, “I will take and read it to Emma, and I believe I can convince her of its truth, and you will hereafter have peace.”

“You do not know Emma as well as I do,” Joseph said. That spring and summer, he had been sealed to additional women, including a few whom Emma had personally selected.17 Yet helping Joseph choose wives had not made obeying the principle easy for Emma.

“The doctrine is so plain,” Hyrum said. “I can convince any reasonable man or woman of its truth, purity, and heavenly origin.”

“We will see,” Joseph said. He asked William to take out paper and write as he spoke the word of the Lord.

Much of the revelation was already known to Joseph. It described the new and everlasting covenant of eternal marriage, along with associated blessings and promises. It also revealed the terms governing plural marriage, which Joseph had learned while translating the Bible in 1831. The remainder of the revelation was new counsel for him and Emma, addressing their questions and current struggles with plural marriage.

I assume that they want to give the impression that Joseph spoke to God at that moment and just got revelation on demand, which is a problem in and of itself since no prophet since has been able to pull it off.

For some reason this to me is pretty good proof that Joseph Smith could riff off these revelations on command which is a semi-big thing when people speak as if no one of his education could ever just come up with this material.

ETA: The JSP entry for this doesn't seem to give any more indication that this was much beyond Joseph just dictating the revelation to Clayton at the request of Hyrum. No mentions of seer stones, deep prayer, visions, etc... just the following:

On 12 July 1843, JS dictated a revelation in his Nauvoo, IL, office in the presence of Hyrum Smith and William Clayton.1 Clayton served as scribe for the revelation, which, according to Clayton, explained “the order of the priesthood,” including “the designs in Moses, Abraham, David and Solomon having many wives & concubines &c.”2

Clayton later stated that he wrote the revelation “sentence by sentence, as he [JS] dictated.” After finishing the dictation, he continued, “Joseph asked me to read it through, slowly and carefully which I did, and he pronounced it correct.”3

According to Clayton’s later recollection, the impetus for the dictation of the revelation was Hyrum Smith’s request that it be written so that he could convince JS’s wife Emma Hale Smith, who did not approve of the practice of polygamy, of the revelation’s truthfulness.4 After JS had dictated the revelation, Hyrum took it to Emma and, according to Clayton, received a “severe talking to” because she was “very bitter and full of resentment and anger” about plural marriage. Hyrum then brought the revelation back to JS. Clayton stated that it was read to “several of the authorities during the day,” including Newel K. Whitney, who asked that a copy be made. JS agreed, and Joseph Kingsbury, a clerk in JS’s brick store, “carefully copied” the revelation the next day. After that copy was made, according to Clayton, JS permitted Emma Smith to destroy the original copy.

[Not Buying It]

This is how it really went down. Joseph said something about getting wives from the Lamanites circa 1831, mostly because he was a perv and was already trying to suss out how he could use his religious power to get sex. It didn’t go anywhere.

In 1835 or thereabouts, before getting the sealing power, he has an affair with Fanny Alger.

In 1836 he supposedly gets the sealing power from Elijah immediately after Elias (who is also Elijah) visits him.

From the late 1830s he’s having affairs on a more frequent basis, using plural marriage and sealing as a cover.

So the Church has to accept the 1831 date for a plural marriage revelation so Fanny Alger looks like a bona fide plural marriage even though Joseph didn’t have the sealing power yet. Otherwise it just looks like a “nasty, dirty, filthy affair”. The Church has to accept the idea of a revelation in 1831 to avoid Fanny just being a marital infidelity. Which is what it really was.

But the real answer is Joseph was just making crap up as he went along if he thought it would get him laid.

[Hagoth]

There are other aspects of these negotiations that we never hear about:

William Clayton wrote that only hours after Emma initially rejected the polygamy revelation, “Joseph told me to deed all the unencumbered lots to Emma and the children. He appears much troubled about Emma.” Three days later Clayton recorded, “Made Deed for 1/2 Steam Boat Maid of Iowa from Joseph to Emma. Also a Deed to Emma for over 60 city lots”(The Journals of William Clayton, Signature Books, 1995).

William Law remembered that Emma confided to him in a conversation that probably occurred in the fall of 1843, “Joe and I have settled our troubles on the basis of equal rights.” (The Law Interview, The Daily Tribune: Salt Lake City, July 31, 1887). Only then did Emma finally gave Joseph permission to marry the Partridge girls, unaware that he was already married to them, and she was also finally permitted to get her own temple endowment.

[jfro18]

This quote from William Clayton is something else: "The prophet invited me to walk with him. During ourwalk, he said he had learned that there was a sisterback in England, to whom I was very much attached.I replied there was, but nothing further than an at-tachment such as a brother and sister in the Churchmight rightfully entertain for each other. He then said,"Why don’t you send for her?" I replied, "In the firstplace, I have no authority to send for her, and if I had,I have not the means to pay expenses." To this heanswered, "I give you authority to send for her, and Iwill furnish you with means," which he did. This wasthe first time the Prophet Joseph talked with me onthe subject of plural marriage. He informed me thatthe doctrine and principle was right.., and that itwas a doctrine which pertained to celestial order andglory.., he concluded [with] the words "It is yourprivilege to have all the wives you want"... He alsoinformed me that he had other wives living besideshis first wife Emma, and in particular gave me tounderstand that Eliza R. Snow, Louisa Be[a]man,Desdemona W. Fullmer and others were his lawfulwives in the sight of Heaven."

"It is your privilege to have all the wives you want" -- I've never heard that line before.

Trying to find if there's any backstory to the method of the revelation but so far just not coming up with much. Maybe I've grasping at straws here but it seems like an interesting twist if Joseph could just 'remember' a revelation years later and have it sound just like his other ones.

[Reuben]

FairMormon has collected the late, nth-hand sources that say Joseph was teaching plural marriage by 1831:

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Ques ... arriage%3F

jfro18, allow me to carefully annotate the snippet of Saints you posted to point out some issues with it.

Much of the revelation was already known to Joseph. [How would they know this? The evidence is weakly in favor of him only teaching the idea of polygamy.] It described the new and everlasting covenant of eternal marriage, along with associated blessings and promises. It also revealed the terms governing plural marriage, which Joseph had learned while translating the Bible in 1831. [What the hell? Are they reading his mind, or just carefully not saying that he was relating what he had learned? How does this square with him not keeping to those terms between 1831 and 1843?] The remainder of the revelation was new counsel for him and Emma, addressing their questions and current struggles with plural marriage. ["Questions" now means "objections." "Counsel" now means "threats." Got it.]

This is the kind of thing you write when you need to deceive someone - perhaps yourself - but want to see yourself as an honest person.

[jfro18]

And here it is... from William Clayton: "Hyrum very urgently requested Joseph to write the revelation by means of the Urim and
Thummim, but Joseph, in reply, said he did not need to, for he knew the revelation perfectly from beginning to end. "

I knew I had heard that before... isn't that kind of a big deal to show that Joseph could riff off revelation in God's voice on command? And that same language is what was used in every other revelation and the Book of Mormon?

Or am I crazy? I kind of want to do a write-up about it but I keep thinking I'm missing something.

[Red Ryder]

Or am I crazy? I kind of want to do a write-up about it but I keep thinking I'm missing something.

You're crazy for wanting to do a write up about it!

Ten years from now (if not sooner) you're going to regret three things:

1. The money you gave the church.
2. The time you gave the church as a member.
3. The time you gave the church unwinding your belief!

In the meantime, write it up Jfro! I'm amazed at your bandwidth and ability to synthesize this information. I'm hoping you can form all of this into a book to document your disengagement.

PS. Was that reformed Egyptian character post with the Tanner reference on reddit yours?

If so you should drop that over here at NOM.

[2bizE]

Would love to see a movie detailing all of this from a chronological view point. Everything that happened in the church they had to make up an earlier date when they claimed it happened.

[jfro18]

You're crazy for wanting to do a write up about it!

Ten years from now (if not sooner) you're going to regret three things:

1. The money you gave the church.
2. The time you gave the church as a member.
3. The time you gave the church unwinding your belief!

In the meantime, write it up Jfro! I'm amazed at your bandwidth and ability to synthesize this information. I'm hoping you can form all of this into a book to document your disengagement.

PS. Was that reformed Egyptian character post with the Tanner reference on reddit yours?

If so you should drop that over here at NOM.

I already regret 1&2 and I kind of regret 3 when I think of the more productive things I could be doing instead.

For whatever reason I find it somewhat therapeutic to write up on this stuff... and since I can't talk with DW about these issues, it's a good outlet. And I've gotten a few emails from people who say the essays/etc have helped them and also helped their families understand the issues, so I think that's pretty cool. Almost all of that credit on the essays goes to Hagoth though since he did the ones that are the most important (Abraham, Polygamy, DNA, Translation) -- I've had a few people email about polygamy and Abraham to say how impressed they were with how effectively those annotated essays take apart the LDS essays.

Anyway - I'll try to see if there's something to write up but it seems like that's kind of a big deal. Maybe I'm crazy for thinking that?

And yes - that was me posting that Tanner's image on Reformed Egyptian. I had never seen it before and it is the best way Ive seen to just illustrate how ridiculous it is. Maybe I'll toss that up here separately so not to mix topics, but I was looking for something on reformed egyptian for a non-LDS friend and laughed when I saw it.

[nibbler]

As I've been listening to the Jim Bennett/Bill Reel discussion I was thinking about D&C 132 while they discussed it.

I've understood D&C 132 (from a faithful perspective) to be a revelation that Joseph Smith received around 1831 (we know the church needs to say this year because of Fanny Alger) but never wrote it down until Hyrum wanted to take it to Emma to set her straight.

So if I understand correctly, Joseph then dictates the revelation to Hyrum but not a new revelation, but a regurgitation of what he had heard 10 years earlier...

Is this accurate or does the church claim that Joseph actually received an entirely new revelation when giving it to Hyrum?

I don't know the first thing about the history of how D&C 132 came about but I half-remember the people that argue that JS didn't practice polygamy (post essays, is that still a thing?) make the claim that D&C 132 only surfaced after JS's death. The claim being it was never revelation from JS and was produced later to give legitimacy to the practice of polygamy once the saints moved out west.

I only mention this because I find it interesting that you mentioned that it was supposedly a revelation through JS in the presence of Hyrum. Two people that were dead and therefore couldn't substantiate or repudiate the claim.

[jfro18]

I don't know the first thing about the history of how D&C 132 came about but I half-remember the people that argue that JS didn't practice polygamy (post essays, is that still a thing?) make the claim that D&C 132 only surfaced after JS's death. The claim being it was never revelation from JS and was produced later to give legitimacy to the practice of polygamy once the saints moved out west.

I only mention this because I find it interesting that you mentioned that it was supposedly a revelation through JS in the presence of Hyrum. Two people that were dead and therefore couldn't substantiate or repudiate the claim.

So it appears that Joseph had Clayton write the revelation down and then he had a copy of it made. Once that copy was made, Joseph apparently 'allowed' Emma to destroy it... the copy survived and was canonized. In 1874, Clayton gave an affidavit stating that it was the revelation that he recorded for Joseph in 1843.

Definitely an interesting history in almost every aspect to how this revelation was recorded and survived after Joseph and Hyrum's deaths.

[jfro18]

So I worked on a write-up of this over a few days when I was waiting at the warehouse for stuff... it needs some polishing and some images to break up the text.

If anyone is bored and wants to read it, let me know what you might add, take out, change, whatever. I feel like 2/3 is setting up for the final 1/3... which might mean the final part should be longer or the rest shorter.

https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/blog-rev ... -and-dc132

Thanks in advance for any comments... I know it needs some polishing up - just got a rough thing of it done and figured I'd toss up for comments to see where I need to do a little more work.

Edit: Updated in the PM.. hopefully for the better... if anyone has more comments please let me know!