Praise for Russell Nelson

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2bizE
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Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by 2bizE » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:39 am

Folks, I’m being facetious here. I have been continually impressed by RMNs ability to effect change. I work in a career where change is very important and difficult to make happen. The changes he has effected are results of problems other church leaders have struggled with for decades and done nothing about. I read some comments on an LDS blog that references what RMN is doing as an LDS culture purge. And I think hat is exactly correct. RMN is trying to purge this toxic culture. Kudos to him for that. Breaking these Mormon norms is what the whole church needs to better see its cultiness.
And he has done it with simple decisions I think.
1) People are tired of Mormons: great let’s stop being Mormons
2) Wards are shrinking: let’s combine priesthood groups.
3) I hate church: let’s make it shorter
4) I hate home teaching: let’s change the name and do it less often
5) There aren’t eneough deacons and that transition from primary to YM/YW sucks because some friends are left behind: great let’s move them up at the start of the year instead.
6) women are tired of being second class citizens in the church: let’s let them make covenants to god rather to their husbands, and while you are at it, stop veiling your faces too.
7) Going to the temple sucks. It’s too long, and watching the same movie is boring: let’s take out some more made-up stuff from the temple to shorten it, and in the time being, watch this PowerPoint presentation instead of a movie.

Now, RMN won’t be around too much longer, I can’t think of a popular change Dallin Hoax could make that would get anyone excited. I see him as deflating the hopes of members.
His changes may include:
1) invent and install gay detectors at all church entrances.
2) change the primary colors, as they are also in the rainbow flag.
3) Try to add Wendy and Sheri Dew to his list of wives in the hereafter.
4) create a Mormon law library to be named after himself.
Thoughts
~2bizE

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Corsair
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by Corsair » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:12 am

I'm wondering how the church will lose its collective mind if or when the Word of Wisdom is relaxed to allow tea and coffe. There wil also be the jarring changes if garments are only required for the temple. I need to carefully plan how I'm going to go pick up a black, unsweetened coffee and drink it in front of my dear, believing wife. She, of course, will think it tastes like exhaust tailpipe of a of a truck that needs a tune up. I'll just have to be the trendsetter for her.

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jfro18
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by jfro18 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:26 am

Corsair wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:12 am
I'm wondering how the church will lose its collective mind if or when the Word of Wisdom is relaxed to allow tea and coffe. There wil also be the jarring changes if garments are only required for the temple. I need to carefully plan how I'm going to go pick up a black, unsweetened coffee and drink it in front of my dear, believing wife. She, of course, will think it tastes like exhaust tailpipe of a of a truck that needs a tune up. I'll just have to be the trendsetter for her.
Bill Reel posted about the WoW changes being discussed and to his credit he nailed a lot of the changes that have happened over the last 6 months... I think what will be interesting is if they take it away as a temple requirement but still leave it there as an understanding that it's still the WoW that you'll still have the cultural divide of "I'm 100% pure vs those weaker LDS members drinking coffee."

Would be the thing if they make the garments optional and only necessary at the temple through just not asking it at the recommend interviews. I have a bad feeling DW would still wear them every day because that's how she was raised to do it and unless they really came out to say it's not needed, she would just keep going as normal.

Last... while I agree that Nelson has made some good changes in reducing some of the more hurtful parts of the church, these were in the works long before Nelson. The shorter church has been piloted for years and I am 99.9% one of the GA's even said the temple changes weren't direct revelation but a long process of study (I could be wrong about that but I am pretty sure that was what he was referring to).

I hope Oaks gets a long time as prophet because I really think he will be a detriment to the church.

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Not Buying It
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:39 am

There's a scene in the martial arts classic "Enter the Dragon" where Bruce Lee practices the art of "fighting without fighting". President Nelson has perfected the art of "making changes without making changes". He's merely changing the amount of lipstick he puts on the pig.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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jfro18
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by jfro18 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:53 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:39 am
There's a scene in the martial arts classic "Enter the Dragon" where Bruce Lee practices the art of "fighting without fighting". President Nelson has perfected the art of "making changes without making changes". He's merely changing the amount of lipstick he puts on the pig.
Yep... and the best part is that he artfully gives the implication it's all revelation from God as he carefully uses words to tell us that it's anything but.

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Corsair
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by Corsair » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:29 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:39 am
There's a scene in the martial arts classic "Enter the Dragon" where Bruce Lee practices the art of "fighting without fighting". President Nelson has perfected the art of "making changes without making changes". He's merely changing the amount of lipstick he puts on the pig.
The last two general conferences put out the clear signal that revelation was engaged. Wendy Nelson has been quite clear that her husband is receiving revelation at a rapid pace. Certainly, the belivers around me all are confident that this breathtaking revelation all around us is moving us towards the Second Coming. It's also confirmation that we have a living prophet, unlike those other loser churches

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Hagoth
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by Hagoth » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:45 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:26 am
I hope Oaks gets a long time as prophet because I really think he will be a detriment to the church.
I can't help but wonder if some of Nelson's actions are a preemptive response to what he sees as potentially draconian leadership once Oaks gets behind the wheel. Of course, if he really wanted to cut Oaks off at the past he would strike at his most dearly held prejudice and offer an olive branch to LGBT members. I can't see that happening, however, since Nelson is the guy who elevated the November 15 declaration from policy to revelation.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:02 pm

Yeah, I'm not entirely sold on the changes, but they are generally for the better. But NBI nailed it, it's lipstick on a pig.

But one less hour of church and shorter, less misogynistic temple sessions? Sign me up!
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:16 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:45 pm
jfro18 wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:26 am
I hope Oaks gets a long time as prophet because I really think he will be a detriment to the church.
I can't help but wonder if some of Nelson's actions are a preemptive response to what he sees as potentially draconian leadership once Oaks gets behind the wheel. Of course, if he really wanted to cut Oaks off at the past he would strike at his most dearly held prejudice and offer an olive branch to LGBT members. I can't see that happening, however, since Nelson is the guy who elevated the November 15 declaration from policy to revelation.
Seems to me that from the first meet the press teleprompter reading by the new CEO, Oaks pretty much had his hand up in there working him like a dummy. Are there any of those changes that seem to be in conflict with Oaks' perspective?
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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nibbler
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by nibbler » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:17 pm

I do think Nelson is reducing some of the (IMO unnecessary) burdens placed on members but I question how much of an effect the changes have had on the elements of the culture that need to be purged.

This may be deeply rooted in human nature, meaning at best the issue can only be mitigated, but what I'd like to see purged from the culture is our judgmentalism.

Looking at a few of the changes:
  • Insisting on using the long-form name of the church. Great, but now there are a few people in the ward that feel like they need to police others for saying Mormon.
  • Shorter church. Great, but we've spent about 20% of our Sabbaths so far this year discussing home church. During these hour long meetings on the subject all you really have the opportunity to do is feel shame for not having done it or, if you have done it, you get to brag a little about what you've done.
  • Home teaching vs. ministering. Talk about doing home church has taken over but before it was the typical PH lessons on HT, but we did a 'Replace All' on the script and substituted in the word ministering. It was almost like a new years resolution. This is our chance to do it right, live the higher law. And now it's another thing that divides the dozen people in the ward that do everything from everyone else in the ward.
I don't think relaxing the WoW will change the culture. The good Mormons still won't drink coffee or tea... well in three or so generations no one will care about whether other people are drinking coffee or tea, they will have moved on to whatever indicators of tribal loyalty exist in their day.

There was one change that did come close to addressing this, the change to combine quorums. No more people feeling inadequate about not getting that social promotion to HP. I don't know whether they accomplished the goal though. IMO they only made making HP that much more elite. You have to have served in a BPric at some point. But mostly no one knows anyone else's PH office and no one cares.
2bizE wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:39 am
7) Going to the temple sucks. It’s too long, and watching the same movie is boring: let’s take out some more made-up stuff from the temple to shorten it, and in the time being, watch this PowerPoint presentation instead of a movie.
I wish they'd go further with shortening it. How much did they cut out? Like 10 minutes or less out of 2+ hours? It would be nice to have a more concise endowment ceremony, 60 minutes or less. But nowadays I'm pretty much lost on the temple experience. It feels more like I'm forced into following a script (imagine that) as opposed to a place where I can listen to the spirit and follow wherever the spirit might take me. The experience has more in common with doing a job on a factory assembly line than worshiping at a house of the lord.
Last edited by nibbler on Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nibbler
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by nibbler » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:21 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:45 pm
jfro18 wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:26 am
I hope Oaks gets a long time as prophet because I really think he will be a detriment to the church.
I can't help but wonder if some of Nelson's actions are a preemptive response to what he sees as potentially draconian leadership once Oaks gets behind the wheel. Of course, if he really wanted to cut Oaks off at the past he would strike at his most dearly held prejudice and offer an olive branch to LGBT members. I can't see that happening, however, since Nelson is the guy who elevated the November 15 declaration from policy to revelation.
How do you account for Nelson "promoting" Oaks to the FP? Like the whole thing was Nelson's effort to have Oaks learn to relax a little through increased interaction?
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

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Hagoth
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by Hagoth » Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:45 pm

nibbler wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:21 pm
How do you account for Nelson "promoting" Oaks to the FP? Like the whole thing was Nelson's effort to have Oaks learn to relax a little through increased interaction?
Good point. Actually, if he was really concerned with fixing the church he would have kept Uchtdorf in and given him more visibility. Replacing him with Oaks is pretty discouraging in regards to my attempt to find a particle of baby in this bathwater.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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jfro18
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by jfro18 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:22 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:45 pm
nibbler wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:21 pm
How do you account for Nelson "promoting" Oaks to the FP? Like the whole thing was Nelson's effort to have Oaks learn to relax a little through increased interaction?
Good point. Actually, if he was really concerned with fixing the church he would have kept Uchtdorf in and given him more visibility. Replacing him with Oaks is pretty discouraging in regards to my attempt to find a particle of baby in this bathwater.
This is a reason to think Nelson isn't really as concerned with making the church more mainstream/less difficult, but that the church was already working on it and planning it.

We know the church was piloting shorter church for years and we know that home teaching/ministering was readied before RMN took over.

Yet the one change Nelson has made that we know was his was about the name business,which fits into Wendy's unfortunate slip that Nelson is now able to do the things he wanted to do but was lacked power to do.

I think Nelson is basically just doing what he can on the fringes while overseeing the implementation of changes that have been in the works for years following focus groups, surveys, etc. Not better prophet than a good survey of members in this church.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:35 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:45 pm
nibbler wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:21 pm
How do you account for Nelson "promoting" Oaks to the FP? Like the whole thing was Nelson's effort to have Oaks learn to relax a little through increased interaction?
Good point. Actually, if he was really concerned with fixing the church he would have kept Uchtdorf in and given him more visibility. Replacing him with Oaks is pretty discouraging in regards to my attempt to find a particle of baby in this bathwater.
I was having this conversation about Uchtdorf vs. Oaks/RMN today at lunch with a friend. I'd always thought Dieter was kicked out of the pres for being too soon to talk about past leader mistakes and bad assumptions as to why folks leave, the famous Doubt Your Doubts talk (after he read through the Faith Crisis Report and may have had some cogdis). But my friend mentioned how he thought it was because Dieter was the most popular COB leader in the old boy band, the silver fox all the baby boomer TBM ladies were getting moist Gs over. Dieter was a threat to RMNs ego and future spotlight. Maybe it was a combo of the two?
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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2bizE
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by 2bizE » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:42 pm

nibbler wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:21 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:45 pm
jfro18 wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:26 am
I hope Oaks gets a long time as prophet because I really think he will be a detriment to the church.
I can't help but wonder if some of Nelson's actions are a preemptive response to what he sees as potentially draconian leadership once Oaks gets behind the wheel. Of course, if he really wanted to cut Oaks off at the past he would strike at his most dearly held prejudice and offer an olive branch to LGBT members. I can't see that happening, however, since Nelson is the guy who elevated the November 15 declaration from policy to revelation.
How do you account for Nelson "promoting" Oaks to the FP? Like the whole thing was Nelson's effort to have Oaks learn to relax a little through increased interaction?
I don’t account for anything with these guys. It’s probably a long-time buddy vs. outside foreigner thing. I don’t think Oaks has relaxed much. Just as homophobic as ever. I do think Nelson is really trying to change things. His goal is for Mormons to not be Mormons anymore. Not sure what he wants them to be yet, but definitely more mainstream Christian.
~2bizE

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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by no1saint » Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:20 pm

True reform would come from:

- The 12 living in the world rather than ensconced in Temple Square, hopefully thry would see and understand the world and how it experiences faith outside of the Morcor.
- Setting a gospel standard that allows diversity in application. White shirts and vanilla services are not the only way to worship. Separation of Church culture and doctrine as envisaged by Elder Poelman will allow a truly global faith to develop. In the Anglican tradition, a broad church family allows a multitude of traditions and experiences to exist under a broad umbrella of faith.
- Long term assignments for Area Presidencies to develop long term relationships with local political leaders and organisations.
- Evolve the missionary program into a global community services outreach program. A 100,000+ strong global volunteer force, that would be inspirational.

There are so many things that could transform the Church, but it would take an extraordinary leadership to change things.

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2bizE
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by 2bizE » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:18 pm

no1saint wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:20 pm
True reform would come from:

- The 12 living in the world rather than ensconced in Temple Square, hopefully thry would see and understand the world and how it experiences faith outside of the Morcor.
- Setting a gospel standard that allows diversity in application. White shirts and vanilla services are not the only way to worship. Separation of Church culture and doctrine as envisaged by Elder Poelman will allow a truly global faith to develop. In the Anglican tradition, a broad church family allows a multitude of traditions and experiences to exist under a broad umbrella of faith.
- Long term assignments for Area Presidencies to develop long term relationships with local political leaders and organisations.
- Evolve the missionary program into a global community services outreach program. A 100,000+ strong global volunteer force, that would be inspirational.

There are so many things that could transform the Church, but it would take an extraordinary leadership to change things.
These are great examples of true reform. I’m not sure how much the church is looking to reform. RMN has been a catalyst for change, but not really reform. The future of reform looks grim. Once RMN passes, I don’t see any real leaders who have the leadership skills to change things to make them more progressive other than Uchkdorf. I see the church sliding back into old habits.
~2bizE

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Not Buying It
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:51 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:35 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:45 pm
nibbler wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:21 pm
How do you account for Nelson "promoting" Oaks to the FP? Like the whole thing was Nelson's effort to have Oaks learn to relax a little through increased interaction?
Good point. Actually, if he was really concerned with fixing the church he would have kept Uchtdorf in and given him more visibility. Replacing him with Oaks is pretty discouraging in regards to my attempt to find a particle of baby in this bathwater.
I was having this conversation about Uchtdorf vs. Oaks/RMN today at lunch with a friend. I'd always thought Dieter was kicked out of the pres for being too soon to talk about past leader mistakes and bad assumptions as to why folks leave, the famous Doubt Your Doubts talk (after he read through the Faith Crisis Report and may have had some cogdis). But my friend mentioned how he thought it was because Dieter was the most popular COB leader in the old boy band, the silver fox all the baby boomer TBM ladies were getting moist Gs over. Dieter was a threat to RMNs ego and future spotlight. Maybe it was a combo of the two?
I think that's totally what it was - jealousy. President Ucthdorf - while in reality as much of a scoundrel as any of them - has 100 times the charisma of the rest of them combined. He's the only one of them that is an engaging, interesting speaker - the rest of them rely completely on the hero worship, take that away and it becomes apparent real fast they all suck at public speaking. I mean REALLY suck at public speaking, and it is amazing they never get any better at it considering how much they do it. He's the only one who really earns all the admiration he receives - the rest of them get it only by virtue of the position they hold, even Elder Ronald "You Bet I Deserve to Be an Apostle" "So Completely Full of Himself" Rasband, who isn't one-tenth as charismatic as he thinks he is. Elder Bednar and President Oaks have the type of personality that is almost universally despised, and the only reason anyone in the Church tolerates them is because they are apostles. Other than President Uchtdorf, the rest of them are a complete personality black hole - not only do they lack interesting personalities, they suck any interesting personality that happens to be around them in and destroy it.

The Brethren are perfectly aware that President Ucthdorf is more admired than they are, that he is a better speaker, that he makes elderly (and many not so elderly) ladies swoon. Hell, the Brethren can't even all walk though the same door without doing it in their damned pecking order, you can't tell me there isn't a considerable amount of small-minded jealousy in an organization that is that petty. Of course it was jealousy.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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nibbler
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by nibbler » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:10 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:51 am
Hell, the Brethren can't even all walk though the same door without doing it in their damned pecking order, you can't tell me there isn't a considerable amount of small-minded jealousy in an organization that is that petty. Of course it was jealousy.
They must have learned make entrances and exits like that that from this story:
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

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Random
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Re: Praise for Russell Nelson

Post by Random » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:51 pm

Absolutely, this is it. The Silver Fox was too popular. People liked him too much. Women liked him. Even many NOM-leaning people liked him. And among the exmo crowd on reddit, he is the one liked if they like any of the 15.
RubinHighlander wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:35 pm
I was having this conversation about Uchtdorf vs. Oaks/RMN today at lunch with a friend. I'd always thought Dieter was kicked out of the pres for being too soon to talk about past leader mistakes and bad assumptions as to why folks leave, the famous Doubt Your Doubts talk (after he read through the Faith Crisis Report and may have had some cogdis). But my friend mentioned how he thought it was because Dieter was the most popular COB leader in the old boy band, the silver fox all the baby boomer TBM ladies were getting moist Gs over. Dieter was a threat to RMNs ego and future spotlight. Maybe it was a combo of the two?
[They] which knew me from the beginning . . . would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Acts 26:5

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