Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
User avatar
jfro18
Posts: 2064
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by jfro18 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:52 pm

Just reading the other thread about the church going mainstream and a lot of comments about what the temple is and why it came to be. I've read so many theories... so what is your theory?

The two I've read before that make the most sense to me, which of course have varying levels of plausibility:

1. Joseph Smith wanted a way to hide polygamy and church secrets, and knew that this would force secrecy due to the nature of the ceremony.

2. Joseph Smith thought he was restoring something because he honestly had no idea what actually was going on in Solomon's temple, and made bad decisions based off his incorrect knowledge of Solomon's temple.

I have a hard time believing he built a temple just to hide polygamy, because he could've done that with a lot less effort. There are numerous instances where Joseph Smith clearly got the Bible wrong and made really bad decisions/doctrines from it... so that makes sense to me as well. So I kind of like the idea that combines 1&2... that he was a fraud who really thought this would give him and the church more credibility/authority, but he also knew it could be used to keep some really bad things secret.

I know there are a lot of other good theories out there... anyone want to post theirs?

User avatar
Red Ryder
Posts: 4144
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:59 pm

Sex, Money,and Power on the altar for and in behalf of the name of God.

Metaphorically speaking.

Any of those three can fit into the temple dynamic back in Joseph Smith's day and certainly in the modern church.

Sex, Money, and Power influences everyone to control others.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7075
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by Hagoth » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:18 pm

I think there is an anthropological answer to this question.

Power is most simply defined as the ability to make others work for you.

Men who put themselves in a place of power over others, especially when they claim to represent God(s), need to manifest their power in substantial, visible accomplishments. We see this throughout history in the form temples, pyramids, shrines, palaces, etc; ostentatious outward signs that are visible to everyone as reminders that there is a guy at the top of the hierarchy who wields the power to make everyone do his bidding. The costlier and the more difficult the feat is, the more power the leader can claim/display.

What goes on inside is secondary, as long as The Man is seen as the important link and the revelator of what God wants done there.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
jfro18
Posts: 2064
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by jfro18 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:03 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:18 pm
Men who put themselves in a place of power over others, especially when they claim to represent God(s), need to manifest their power in substantial, visible accomplishments. We see this throughout history in the form temples, pyramids, shrines, palaces, etc; ostentatious outward signs that are visible to everyone as reminders that there is a guy at the top of the hierarchy who wields the power to make everyone do his bidding. The costlier and the more difficult the feat is, the more power the leader can claim/display.
That's a better summary of my thinking than others... I think the hiding polygamy element was absolutely there, but I don't think it's what drove Joseph to build temples.

He needed something to bind the church together while giving himself more authority, so he used a poor interpretation of temples in the Bible to get people to turn over their money and property to build one.

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2235
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by Palerider » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:48 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:03 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:18 pm
Men who put themselves in a place of power over others, especially when they claim to represent God(s), need to manifest their power in substantial, visible accomplishments. We see this throughout history in the form temples, pyramids, shrines, palaces, etc; ostentatious outward signs that are visible to everyone as reminders that there is a guy at the top of the hierarchy who wields the power to make everyone do his bidding. The costlier and the more difficult the feat is, the more power the leader can claim/display.
That's a better summary of my thinking than others... I think the hiding polygamy element was absolutely there, but I don't think it's what drove Joseph to build temples.

He needed something to bind the church together while giving himself more authority, so he used a poor interpretation of temples in the Bible to get people to turn over their money and property to build one.
These concepts both have credibility. I think something that is overlooked is Joseph's continuing promises of newer, higher, bigger, better revelation. He was continually promising the saints that they were going to receive these great blessings of great spiritual power and enlightenment. The powers of Heaven were going to be opened just to them. They would be able to help cleanse the earth, perform miracles....yada, yada, yada.

But an obstruction to those promises were his enemies inside the church. More on that later.

It was obvious by the way the Kirtland temple was designed, he didn't have his full doctrinal construct in place mentally. The Kirtland temple only solved part of his problem which was, as Hagoth suggests, to project power and keep people busy on a project they could dedicate themselves to.

To solve the "loyalty" and committment problem, he really needed a doctrinal construct or instrument that would "bind" people to him psychologically. And between his study of Jewish gnosticism and Masonry he finally found his "hybrid root" through which he could grow or synthesize the endowment and eternal marriage in all of it's forms.

Essentially he found a way to kill two birds with one stone. Project power and bind members in loyalty at the same time. Satan isn't the one who is being bound here, it's the unsuspecting member.

Joseph's great failure here was/is that the promised endowment of power is totally a psychological trick. There is no power in the endowment. But no one wants to say the emperor has no clothes! It's so sacred they can hardly talk about it outside the temple lest they come under God's condemnation.

It's a total fraud. :oops: But we are bound down by it just the same. And because an "oath" actually meant more back then than it does today, Joseph could use that strategy to weed out his enemies.
Last edited by Palerider on Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
felixfabulous
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:37 pm

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by felixfabulous » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:39 pm

I think it was set up as a mechanism to bind together an elite inner circle of people practicing polygamy. I think Joseph saw how well masonry did this and wanted to make an appendant rite (like the Royal Arch). When the succession crisis hit, Brigham saw how effective it did this and wanted to have all of the people who followed him go through the ceremony to bind them together in loyalty.

dogbite
Posts: 581
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 1:28 pm
Location: SLC

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by dogbite » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:43 pm

i think it was another if his power consolidation moves he trumped up as needed. See also the origin of the priesthood, first vison stories and their timing and so on.

if he could wrap it up in the trappings of Biblical related restoration, all the better.

User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 3629
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by wtfluff » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:49 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:52 pm
I have a hard time believing he built a temple just to hide polygamy, because he could've done that with a lot less effort.
Interesting. Do we need to separate the endowment from the temple here? Because there are many instances where the endowment was performed outside of a temple. (Sealings too.)

And at that point, is there any way to separate the endowment from polygamy? The evidence I know of suggests that only Joseph's "anointed quorum" were originally given the endowment, and all of the "anointed quorum" were involved in polygamy. Did anyone besides the "anointed quorum" receive their endowment before Joseph jumped out of the window at Carthage? (I obviously haven't put in the time to "know" everything about this timeline, and honestly, I doubt I ever will.)

It's also hard to separate the endowment and sealings from polygamy just looking at the wording. Yeah there's "new" wording that make the endowment and sealings a "little" less polygamous, but a lot of it is still the same, and the wording in parts of the temple referring to "the new and everlasting covenant" = polygamy. There's also still the heinous practice where men can be sealed to more than one woman, but not the other way around. (All about polygamy.)
jfro18 wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:52 pm
1. Joseph Smith wanted a way to hide polygamy and church secrets, and knew that this would force secrecy due to the nature of the ceremony.
So if you can't tell, I'm in the camp that believes that the temple, and the endowment are all about polygamy. While that might not be the only reason that Joseph "invented" the endowment by plagiarizing the Masonic ceremony, I'd say that it's the major reason. The Masonic ceremony is all about keeping secrets. What sort of secrets did Joseph want to keep? (Polygamy.)

Also: Look at the differences between the Kirtland temple, and the Nauvoo temple. Kirtland was basically a fancy meeting house. Everyone was welcome. Nauvoo: not so much. What changed between Kirtland and Nauvoo? (Yeah, polygamy.)



So, while there may be other reasons for the temple besides polygamy, I don't think the temple would exist without polygamy, and if mormon polygamy had never been invented, I think the temple would look/be very different. (More like Kirtland/ CoC?)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

User avatar
achilles
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:17 pm

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by achilles » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:05 pm

I agree with many others that it was a way to get certain folks to vow silence on the polygamy thing. And to make some people feel extra special.
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

― Carl Sagan

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7075
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by Hagoth » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:30 pm

Palerider wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:48 pm
To solve the "loyalty" and committment problem, he really needed a doctrinal construct or instrument that would "bind" people to him psychologically. And between his study of Jewish gnosticism and Masonry he finally found his "hybrid root" through which he could grow or synthesize the endowment and eternal marriage in all of it's forms...

Joseph's great failure here was/is that the promised endowment of power is totally a psychological trick. There is no power in the endowment. But no one wants to say the emperor has no clothes! It's so sacred they can hardly talk about it outside the temple lest they come under God's condemnation.

...an "oath" actually meant more back then than it does today, Joseph could use that strategy to weed out his enemies.
Heck yeah!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by moksha » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:15 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:49 pm
Do we need to separate the endowment from the temple here? Because there are many instances where the endowment was performed outside of a temple. (Sealings too.)
Are you referring to the super secret sealing performed on the haystack in the Smith's barn at Kirkland, Ohio?

I can see her lyin' back in her gingham dress
On a haystack where ya do what ya don't confess
Fanny, you better take care
If I find you been creepin' 'round my back stairs.

-- Country Emma and the Relief Sisters
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
Not Buying It
Posts: 1308
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:29 pm

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:47 am

Personally I think he realized a successful conman always needs something new to keep his victims on the line. I think he was always on the lookout for something new he could introduce, which is why so much of what he came up with seems random and inconsistent (e.g., none of his later doctrinal introductions being included in the Book of Mormon). He had to keep making crap up so his followers would keep thinking he was a prophet.

I think it’s as simple as that. The temple ceremonies are just another thing he figured he could steal from the masons and use to look prophetic. Keep in mind sealings weren’t originally done in the temple, at first those were just a way for him to get sex from women, but eventually they became associated with the the temple. I’m not sure he had a scheme of any kind in mind with the temple really, it may have just been “well gotta come up with something new to keep my followers satisfied”.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by Corsair » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:40 am

The explanations offered so far sound plausible. Whatever was the actual reason for the temple endoment, the evolving church has done their best to turn it into a way to build personal spirituality and repeatedly perform ordinances with some eternal necessity. We still have lots of silliness in the actual operation of temple ordinances, but it's clear that every religion has their own funny hats when you look close enough.

The spirituality that my dear wife derives from temple worship is simply not accessible to me any longer. The essential mystery is gone, and I cannot artificially recreate it within the walls of this overpriced building. I am happy to have my own source of spirituality, but it's the kind of thing that is equally inaccessible to believers.

User avatar
RubinHighlander
Posts: 1906
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:20 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:31 pm

It's still a bit of a mind blow to me, my first trip to the temple for my endowments. I had never been that shaken up about something before in my life. It should have been a grand and faith promoting experience; instead it was the complete opposite. It was unsettling, stressful, disturbing, scary, pretty much major dose of cogdis. Of course the penalties were in full swing in 1983, so yeah. It took a lot of mental gymnastics to get over it and get used to it; it helped attending with kids my age when we were in the MTC in Provo.

I wonder how it would have been different for me if the ceremonies would have been then as they are now? Hard to travel back to that 19 year old mind. I'm guessing it would have been a little creepy and cultish, but not nearly as much as it was back then.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 3629
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by wtfluff » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:54 pm

Here's a question that has been bouncing around in my head, that I think is related to this thread:

What has the temple done, or what does it actually do that contributes to the betterment of human society in general?


(If ya'll think this doesn't belong here, I'll start another thread...)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

Reuben
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by Reuben » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:41 am

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:54 pm
What has the temple done, or what does it actually do that contributes to the betterment of human society in general?
I'll assume that believing Mormons are part of society in general.

The temple gives a minority of Mormons a sense of belonging and purpose that are very hard to put a price on. Those positive primary effects have positive secondary effects on others.

I'm also interested in weighing the positive social effects against the negative ones.

I know I'm biased in this, but I can't help but feel that the positive effects are outweighed by the negative effects of the temple sitting on top of a Rameumptom. The policies that limit access to the temple divide the church into classes and justify classism. The policies also perpetuate the harmful fiction of "worthiness," which steals self-esteem from some members to give it to others.

If the temples were open to all members and nobody were excluded from life events they have a reasonable expectation to attend, temples might even be a net good. It would be very hard to measure, though.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

User avatar
RubinHighlander
Posts: 1906
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:20 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by RubinHighlander » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:19 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:54 pm
Here's a question that has been bouncing around in my head, that I think is related to this thread:

What has the temple done, or what does it actually do that contributes to the betterment of human society in general?


(If ya'll think this doesn't belong here, I'll start another thread...)
For me as a TBM it boiled down to save yourself by saving the world. Now of course this was a bunch of made up BS, thinking about all those spirits on the other side, waiting for me to get off my ass, so my family history and get those endowments done for them. Nothing like guilt and fear to keep you running on the TSCC treadmill/gerbil wheel to work out your salvation and earn your ticket to the magic kingdom.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 3629
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by wtfluff » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:46 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:19 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:54 pm
Here's a question that has been bouncing around in my head, that I think is related to this thread:

What has the temple done, or what does it actually do that contributes to the betterment of human society in general?


(If ya'll think this doesn't belong here, I'll start another thread...)
For me as a TBM it boiled down to save yourself by saving the world. Now of course this was a bunch of made up BS, thinking about all those spirits on the other side, waiting for me to get off my ass, so my family history and get those endowments done for them. Nothing like guilt and fear to keep you running on the TSCC treadmill/gerbil wheel to work out your salvation and earn your ticket to the magic kingdom.
OK... Maybe I should have typed: What does the temple actually do that contributes to the betterment of humans who are alive?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7075
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by Hagoth » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:52 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:31 pm
It's still a bit of a mind blow to me, my first trip to the temple for my endowments. I had never been that shaken up about something before in my life. It should have been a grand and faith promoting experience; instead it was the complete opposite. It was unsettling, stressful, disturbing, scary, pretty much major dose of cogdis.
Boy, me too. I was physically ill and had to go to bed afterward. Of course I blamed myself for being unprepared or unworthy or something and somehow figured out a way to reframe it in retrospect as a spiritual experience rather than a nightmare. The human mind is an amazingly agile thing.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Reuben
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: Let's hear it - What is *your* belief as to what the temple was created for...

Post by Reuben » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:29 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:52 pm
RubinHighlander wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:31 pm
It's still a bit of a mind blow to me, my first trip to the temple for my endowments. I had never been that shaken up about something before in my life. It should have been a grand and faith promoting experience; instead it was the complete opposite. It was unsettling, stressful, disturbing, scary, pretty much major dose of cogdis.
Boy, me too. I was physically ill and had to go to bed afterward. Of course I blamed myself for being unprepared or unworthy or something and somehow figured out a way to reframe it in retrospect as a spiritual experience rather than a nightmare. The human mind is an amazingly agile thing.
To think that I missed that blessed experience by only 5 years. You two were so lucky.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 44 guests