It's complicated-and this is why.

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
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deacon blues
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It's complicated-and this is why.

Post by deacon blues » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:25 pm

One of the problems with LDS history and doctrine is words change meanings. I've been researching the period when Martin Harris lost the 116 pages. We also hear that Joseph lost (or the angel took them)the urim and thummim, except we still don't know if that means the breastplate and/or glasses, the seerstone, or both (all three?). They are both called "the urim and thummim." Or maybe it just means Joseph's translating ability. It just occurred to me that this happens over and over again in the Church History and Doctrine. So many words mean multiple things: Angels, God, Spirit, Ghost, translate, Lamanites, Marriage, Sealing, visions and/or dreams; even words like sin and love get redefined to fit a particular situation or interpretation. :o Redefining words is a big part of propaganda. ;) And sometimes it just pisses me off. :x

P.S. I'm reminded when a certain leader tried to redefine salamander. :roll:
God is Love. God is Truth

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jfro18
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Re: It's complicated-and this is why.

Post by jfro18 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:36 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:25 pm
One of the problems with LDS history and doctrine is words change meanings. I've been researching the period when Martin Harris lost the 116 pages. We also hear that Joseph lost (or the angel took them)the urim and thummim, except we still don't know if that means the breastplate and/or glasses, the seerstone, or both (all three?). They are both called "the urim and thummim." Or maybe it just means Joseph's translating ability.
And to add to the problem, no one in the church even used the phrase "urim and thummim" until 1833, so until then they would use phrases like "interpreters."

I would argue that they began using the term U&T because it had a biblical background, even though it was (shocker) being used incorrectly by the church. The U&T was never a translator but more of a "yes/no" object... a magic 8-ball of sorts.

Which is why the whole thing is such a mess.

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: It's complicated-and this is why.

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:51 pm

jfro18 wrote:
deacon blues wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:25 pm
One of the problems with LDS history and doctrine is words change meanings. I've been researching the period when Martin Harris lost the 116 pages. We also hear that Joseph lost (or the angel took them)the urim and thummim, except we still don't know if that means the breastplate and/or glasses, the seerstone, or both (all three?). They are both called "the urim and thummim." Or maybe it just means Joseph's translating ability.
And to add to the problem, no one in the church even used the phrase "urim and thummim" until 1833, so until then they would use phrases like "interpreters."

I would argue that they began using the term U&T because it had a biblical background, even though it was (shocker) being used incorrectly by the church. The U&T was never a translator but more of a "yes/no" object... a magic 8-ball of sorts.

Which is why the whole thing is such a mess.
Yep, apologist authors Brant Gardner and Laura Hales agree:
Brant A. Gardner

"A reason for faith"


About the time of the publication of the Book of Commandments in 1833, W. W. Phelps began using the biblical term Urim and Thummim to describe both the interpreters and Joseph's seer stone. It was a reference of convenience that lent a more sophisticated feeling to the translation. Christians knew of the Urim and Thummim from the bible, where they were connected to the high priest and receiving revelation. Particularly for newer converts, that was a more familiar reference than the seer stones, and it soon became the way to refer to the process by which the translation occurred, even though the term was technically inaccurate.


The term Urim and Thummim was inserted later into sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. For example, in our current version, D&C 10:1 reads, "Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings, which you had power given unto you to translate by means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them." The addition of the information about the Urim and Thummim is in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants, and that meaning was firmly entrenched by that time.

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Palerider
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Re: It's complicated-and this is why.

Post by Palerider » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:17 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:51 pm
......It was a reference of convenience(misrepresentation) that lent a more sophisticated (believable) feeling to the translation. Christians knew of the Urim and Thummim from the bible, where they were connected to the high priest and receiving revelation. Particularly for newer converts, that was a more familiar reference than the seer (peep) stones (which sounded like Hocus pocus magic), and it soon became the way to refer to the (glass looking) process by which the translation occurred, even though the term was technically inaccurate (a lie), thus it aided in avoiding awkward questions.
There.... I helped Brant with his writing integrity. :D
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Hagoth
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Re: It's complicated-and this is why.

Post by Hagoth » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:37 pm

Extermination. Governor Boggs issued an extermination order, but extermination didn't mean the Mormons were to be killed, it meant they were to be persuaded, by whatever means, to find another place to live.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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