Signs of church in Apostasy

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Hagoth
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Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by Hagoth » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:07 pm

Let's assume Joseph Smith really did restore God's One And Only True Church. Does that automatically require that the CoJCoLDS in Salt Lake City (aka the Brighamite branch) is that church? I think there are clear signs of apostasy. It may be considered that Joseph's church stayed behind and Brigham's (i.e. the polygamist branch) moved west.

Here is what I have:

ETA: First Presidency received a revelation to exclude children of gay couples from church membership in 2015, then withdrew it in 2019 due to social pressure. Were they lying about it being a revelation or were they defying God in declassifying it as such? Even if you ignore all of the proofs below, TODAY (April 4, 2019) the church went into apostasy.

-Joseph Smith is said to have named a number of potential successors. Brigham Young was not one of them. Neither was he the logical "next in line."

-Brigham Young schemed, broke rules, and manipulated the system to put himself in charge (see RFM episode 1 for details)

-Brigham Young required the saints who followed him west to be re-baptized into his church

-Brigham Young and other early Utah leaders taught false doctrine about the very nature of God; obviously didn't know Him.

-Polygamy: Joseph practiced it but he didn't' require it as essential to salvation as Brigham and John Taylor did. They added Section 132 to support their lifestyles. Now the church disclaims BY's doctrine. Two-levels-deep apostasy.

-Escalation of tithing from increase to gross, and its requirement for temple worthiness (selling tokens and signs for money)

-Significant changes to the temple ordinances, dictated by embarrassment and public opinion.

-Utter lack of prophesy and miracles, and the redefinition of those terms to fit their mundane modern counterparts.

-Escalation of leader worship and Pharisaical behavior.

Others?

ETA:
-Regarding Brigham's confusion on the nature of God: he said he got it directly from Joseph. The modern church says, "no you didn't!" This implicates either Brigham as apostatizing from Joseph's teachings or modern church from Brigham's.

-Regarding sex with teen wives: Brigham said he did exactly what Joseph did. Modern church says Joseph didn't sex up the girls. Modern apologists say Brigham forced some of Joseph's wives to lie about sex under oath. Again, modern church says Brigham was in apostasy.

-John Taylor's revelation directly from Jesus that polygamy will never be withdrawn. Wilford Woodruff says the church will never let a prophet lead the church astray. 4 years later he ended polygamy. Either Taylor of Woodruff was in apostasy.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by jfro18 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:34 pm

-Banning blacks (although you could include that in your part about false doctrine about God)

-Changing Word of Wisdom to a commandment when it is pretty clear that it was not intended to be one

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Just This Guy
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:07 pm

- See FRM's 3 part episode of Pharisism in the church for 12 detailed examples of the leadership being more concerned with how they apear to their fellow men than to god.

- Refusal to take mattes to God. A number of the sections of the D&C are responses from inquires by various members. Now when ordinary people ask the leadership to pray about something (Ordain Women, Sam Young, etc) they are told that it is not their place to do so.

- Failure to follow the Law of Common Consent. D&C says that ALL THINGS in the church are to be done by CC, including all financial matters. Now Financial maters are withheld from the general membership and people are called to repentance for voting opposed. (doubting the devinity of the calling & leadership)

-The PoX! "Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not." PoX is in direct violation of the worlds of Christ.

-The Church's constant covering up of abuse cases. Paying hush money. They protect themselves at the cost of the victims. Christ had something to say about this that involved large bodies of water, rope, very large rocks, and things not ending well for the perpetrator.

-Tithing. D&C says that it is to be in Increase, the church today requires their cut before even the basic necessities of life. Plus they under handly encourage people to pay more than gross, WAY more than increase.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

Mormon 8
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by Mormon 8 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:13 pm

1. City Creek mall and million dollar condos
2. A multi-hundred million dollar state of the art conference center
3. Top church leaders that are well paid with numerous perks and benefits for themselves and families
4. The church as a mega real estate corporation
5. For-profit church businesses that prey on the less fortunate (e.g. - Beneficial Life) with loan-sharking interest rates
6. Private hunting reserve clubs in Nevada for the wealthy
7. $32 billion in the U.S. stock market
8. Using the name of Christ to make money
9. No financial transparency
10. No more common consent
11. No tithes going to help the poor (Dallin H. Oaks has admitted this)
12. Different tithing expectations based on status level in the church (Apostles are exempt, MP's are allowed to deduct any expense they want or need to before paying their 10% and rank and file members are expected to pay 10% of gross income which is in violation of D&C 119
13. Plans to construct a 500,000 person metropolis in Florida
14. Using Masonic temple rituals as requirements for salvation
15. Knowingly withholding damning evidence surrounding church history and the life of Joseph Smith from members and investigators
16. Composing 12 essays about key controversial aspects regarding church history that was once deemed 'anti-Mormon literature' which the church now acknowledges as true and then quietly burying that information on it's own website where only those who are aware of the essays will find them
17. Composing dozens of other shorter essays surrounding other key elements of church history/doctrine that are disturbing and not faith-promoting and burying them on its website as well
18. Claiming to have no paid clergy when that is 100% false
19. Being stingy or refusing to provide assistance when it comes to helping members of the church when they fall on hard times by telling them to seek government or family help first, even if the member has paid a full tithe or served in many capacities.
20. Constantly changing temple ordinances, church policies and other key components of doctrine to satisfy member concerns or to pacify the world.
21. Continuing to allow men in the church to be sealed to multiple women in the temple

And on and on and on.

Mackman
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by Mackman » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:20 am

Yes all the signs exist as I see it now for many years however we need to somehow be able to convince out TBM spouses, friends etc etc to bring this info out in the open and bring about change!!!

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Hagoth
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by Hagoth » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:13 am

Welcome to NOM, Mormon 8!
Mormon 8 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:13 pm
11. No tithes going to help the poor (Dallin H. Oaks has admitted this)
Do you have a quote or link to Oak's statement by any chance?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by moksha » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:02 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:07 pm
Let's assume Joseph Smith really did restore God's One And Only True Church.
As long as it is not "let's assume the moon is made of green cheese". That would lead us to suspect the cause of this greenishness to be either from mold or food coloring. If we went with food coloring we would have to consider its relationship to the beer frequently served on Saint Patricks Day. That would put the moon at odds with the Word of Wisdom and possibly on the path to apostasy. Moon mold, on the other hand, would be fully in compliance with the restored gospel and perhaps serve as a testimony to the Fullness of Time.

Just a thought.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by Hagoth » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:17 pm

moksha wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:02 am
Just a thought.
I hope you're going to pass that joint around, Moksha.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Arcturus
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by Arcturus » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:48 pm

Brigham's individual wealth that he was able to amass as a result of deploying church resources for personal enrichment is a big deal to me. There's a lot of documentation on that per Quinn's research.

Also, Samuel Smith's untimely death (2 weeks after?) following Joseph and Hyrum has always been a little sinister to me. How valid is the research based on Smith family diaries that he was poisoned by a Danite, and the poisoning was commissioned by Brigham?
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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Hagoth
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by Hagoth » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:49 am

That's interesting stuff, Arcturus.

Also the fact that Brigham lived in a mansion while most members were scratching out minimal subsistence and living in hovels. Don't try to tell me he earned it through carpentry work. And then there was the way the prophet (Brigham Young) would borrow vast amounts of money from the church and squander it and then the governor (Brigham Young) would forgive the debt. And how is it that Brigham (a carpenter who had been working as an almost-fulltime missionary for years) could suddenly afford a wagon train filled with coffee, tobacco, brandy, and a steam engine for his personal yacht while his starving subjects were dragging handcarts through the snow and living on a half cup of flour per day?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by jfro18 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:32 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:49 am
That's interesting stuff, Arcturus.

Also the fact that Brigham lived in a mansion while most members were scratching out minimal subsistence and living in hovels. Don't try to tell me he earned it through carpentry work. And then there was the way the prophet (Brigham Young) would borrow vast amounts of money from the church and squander it and then the governor (Brigham Young) would forgive the debt. And how is it that Brigham (a carpenter who had been working as an almost-fulltime missionary for years) could suddenly afford a wagon train filled with coffee, tobacco, brandy, and a steam engine for his personal yacht while his starving subjects were dragging handcarts through the snow and living on a half cup of flour per day?
Wait what?! I need to research BY more apparently. I knew he made a ton of $$ as prophet in Utah, but not much about the other stuff.

Arcturus
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by Arcturus » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:37 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:49 am
That's interesting stuff, Arcturus.

Also the fact that Brigham lived in a mansion while most members were scratching out minimal subsistence and living in hovels. Don't try to tell me he earned it through carpentry work. And then there was the way the prophet (Brigham Young) would borrow vast amounts of money from the church and squander it and then the governor (Brigham Young) would forgive the debt. And how is it that Brigham (a carpenter who had been working as an almost-fulltime missionary for years) could suddenly afford a wagon train filled with coffee, tobacco, brandy, and a steam engine for his personal yacht while his starving subjects were dragging handcarts through the snow and living on a half cup of flour per day?
This dirt on Brigham, along with the messy priesthood restoration timeline, are the two topics that broke my shelf. I was doing all sorts of gymnastics to make everything else work, but those two things did me in for some reason.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

Arcturus
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by Arcturus » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:42 am

From Samuel Smith's Wikipedia page regarding his demise:
Smith's official cause of death was "bilious fever", which is an archaic and inexact term for any disease accompanied by a fever and the evacuation of bile, such as typhoid fever or malaria. Lucy Mack Smith later suggested Smith had become ill because of the fatigue and shock occasioning by his experience of the death of his brothers. Soon after his death, rumors circulated that Smith was poisoned by Hosea Stout on orders from Willard Richards. In a meeting on July 10, 1844, Smith had been in a meeting with Richards in which Smith reminded the group that he was Joseph's designee as president if both Joseph and Hyrum had died. Richards, however, had wanted to delay the decision on succession until Brigham Young and other prominent missionaries had returned to Nauvoo. Stout was suspected in part because, as reported by Smith's wife, Stout had been administering a white powder to Smith daily as treatment for his illness.
I'd love to look into this more if anyone knows of other resources other than those cited in the Wikipedia article.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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Hagoth
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by Hagoth » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:47 am

Arcturus wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:37 am
This dirt on Brigham, along with the messy priesthood restoration timeline, are the two topics that broke my shelf.
I really don't understand how members get so tied in knots about criticisms of Joseph Smith, but with Brigham they just kind of shrug and say, "eh, what're ya gonna do?"
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by jfro18 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:04 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:47 am
Arcturus wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:37 am
This dirt on Brigham, along with the messy priesthood restoration timeline, are the two topics that broke my shelf.
I really don't understand how members get so tied in knots about criticisms of Joseph Smith, but with Brigham they just kind of shrug and say, "eh, what're ya gonna do?"
Does anyone have any links to a good write-up/article about these BY issues? I knew he was a monster but clearly hadn't seen the details beyond polygamy and treatment of blacks/adam-god/etc.

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moksha
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by moksha » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:32 am

Would prefacing names with the word Even be a symptom of impending or full-blown apostasy? What about anomalous uses of the word Moisture?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Arcturus
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by Arcturus » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:46 am

jfro18 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:04 am

Does anyone have any links to a good write-up/article about these BY issues? I knew he was a monster but clearly hadn't seen the details beyond polygamy and treatment of blacks/adam-god/etc.
I don't know of a clear and accessible write-up on BY's wealth jfro18. I was introduced to it via some podcast episodes where D Michael Quinn was interviewed. I believe they were MS episodes. But I think those details (BY's wealth) are deep in some of Quinn's books (your average Mormon would not stumble upon those facts). I think the topic deserves a solid synthesis. There's absolutely no way a TBM can defend BY's actions in amassing so much wealth by exploiting the church's resources, while so many Mormons lived in destitute circumstances on the Utah frontier. And following his death, John Taylor's demands for BY's family (those of his wives who benefited most from his wealth, given that he played favorites with his family) to remit ~50% of the wealth back to the church or face excommunication. BY's wealth is staggering - if I remember right Quinn says BY was 1 of only a handful of true millionaires in North America back in his time. The awesome thing is these $ values are historical fact because the details came out in probate court when John Taylor went about getting the money back to the church. I did the math once but I think in today's $ values, BY was a 50-60 millionaire (don't quote me on that). How the F*** could this guy have been the Lord's chosen prophet for the world??? Good luck defending BY, FAIR Mormon.

My opinion of BY? A dirt-bag colossal ass hole. When I learned about all this my confidence in the LDS church maintaining its truth claims really took a hit. Particularly the whole - if this, then that... If the BofM is true then Joseph was a prophet. If Joseph was a prophet then that means BY and every other president since then is the Lord's prophet... Nope! It all could have fallen apart with the succession crisis. So for a TBM, unless there's some form of spiritual witness (akin to the BofM) that would allow one to gain a testimony of BY's prophethood, then how can one "know" that BY was a prophet?

Mormon history is a cluster ****
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:32 am

Jfro,

Here is the pdf document that details Brigham's diversion of part of the handcart rescue group to go get his steam engine and groceries at Fort Bridger. Also has a lot of other fascinating history about how messed up the handcart plan was.

“ONE LONG FUNERAL MARCH”:
A REVISIONIST’S VIEW OF THE
MORMON HANDCART DISASTERS
Will Bagley

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 8jc6Il1bnN


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Hagoth
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by Hagoth » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:13 pm

Let's take a little walking tour.

On one side of Temple Square we see an example of a typical Mormon home:
Image

And on the other side we find Brigham's home:
Image


The owner of the first home was a blacksmith and farmer by trade. The owner of the second was a woodworker. And assumed prophet.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Mormon 8
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Re: Signs of church in Apostasy

Post by Mormon 8 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:49 pm

That pic of the Lion House makes me sick to my stomach. And $50-$60 million in net worth??? What, is a church "Apostolic calling' like a federal government position where you go in a middle class citizen and come out a millionaire? :lol: He wasn't even called, he basically took over as President. Guy was such a douche.

By the way Hagoth, been trying to locate that quote from Dallin H. Oaks about how no tithes go to help the poor, but I'm coming up empty. Seems as though they've been pulled.

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