THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

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Not Buying It
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:07 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:48 pm
Blashyrkh wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:25 pm
I am an adult I knew their rules and chose not to follow them. An apology? Seriously?
Yes, an apology. Absolutely. This is not about people like you or me needing an apology, Blashyrkh. It's lying to the people who trusted them most about this being a revelation. From God Almighty, for cryin' out loud. For providing those people with fuel for bigotry. For the children and families damaged. For scorned kids who took their lives. For people excommunicated for apostasy that is no longer apostasy.

To the affected children it was not a simply a choice to bow down or walk away. They were told that Jesus Christ required a saving ordinance that their friends were worthy of but they were not. This was intentional and vindictive shunning. People were needlessly harmed by "prophets and apostles," and told that it was under direct orders from God. Yes, absolutely, not only apology but sincere and public repentance and begging for forgiveness from God and from the people for whom they claim to be shepherds.
I have to agree with Hagoth here, I think an apology is clearly in order. When you hurt someone, you apologize. This policy hurt a lot of people. It caused a great deal of anguish in people who believe that the Brethren are what they claim to be, but who have family members and friends who are homosexual. It caused a lot of anguish for members who are homosexual and want nothing more than to be accepted for who they are. And what of the members who went out on a limb defending the Church's stupid policy to their justifiably outraged friends, who have now been thrown under the bus and have to defend a revelation nullifying the previous revelation? This whole mess caused real pain to real people. The Church shouldn't cause that kind of pain and think it doesn't owe anyone an apology.

Do con men owe their victims an apology? You play the con man's game, you trust his rules, he screws you over, is it your own fault for being gullible? Is a con man just doing what a con man does, and you're to blame for letting them do it?
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Just This Guy
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:52 am

I see where he is coming from. You have to be pretty blind to not see that Mormonism is hateful towards the gay community so you do know there are risks when you get involved with something like this. I do acknowledge that is gets messy really quick because of how much of this is cultural inertia in Mormonism. Kids don't have much choice except to be subject to this hatefulness.

However, WWJD? What would Jesus do? If you claim to be the mouth piece for Jesus and the exemplar of his teachings, then you need to repent and part of that repentance process is to admit your sins and to provide restitution as much as possible to the people who suffer because of your actions.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Hagoth
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by Hagoth » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:07 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:07 am
Do con men owe their victims an apology? You play the con man's game, you trust his rules, he screws you over, is it your own fault for being gullible? Is a con man just doing what a con man does, and you're to blame for letting them do it?
I think it's more like calling a policeman to come to your rescue and instead he leads you into a dark alley and mugs you.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Hagoth
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by Hagoth » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:17 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:52 am
However, WWJD? What would Jesus do? If you claim to be the mouth piece for Jesus and the exemplar of his teachings, then you need to repent and part of that repentance process is to admit your sins and to provide restitution as much as possible to the people who suffer because of your actions.
Yeah, maybe that's a better way of looking at it. These guys are holding themselves up as THE representatives of Christ on the earth. They demand constant repentance from their members for the slightest infractions. (e.g. Oaks publicly berates kids for taking the sacrament with their left hand).

On the other hand, this was a big eye-opener for Mrs. Hagoth. She told me yesterday that she can no longer believe that Nelson is a prophet. "There's a difference between a prophet and a president." She see's how much of what he's been doing is about finally getting his way now that he has some power, and about desperate attempts to stem the bleeding.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Mormorrisey
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:12 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:52 am
However, WWJD? What would Jesus do? If you claim to be the mouth piece for Jesus and the exemplar of his teachings, then you need to repent and part of that repentance process is to admit your sins and to provide restitution as much as possible to the people who suffer because of your actions.
A thousand times this.

How can anybody buy Oaks' mantra that apologizing and restitution is an essential part of the repentance process, yet the institution can give it a pass just because? The same church that insists we call Jesus' church ad nauseam? It never made sense to me about blacks and the priesthood, polygamy, etc., that the institution doesn't need to admit to mistakes and/or repent properly, and I feel the same about this.

But I'm not going to hold my breath that they will, either.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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moksha
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by moksha » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:21 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:20 am
Hocus: when they enacted the policy they let the most LGBT friendly apostle, Christoferson, be the spokesman/fall guy

Pocus: when they change it back, the most LGBT hateful apostle, Oaks, gets to be the hero.
Marketing research probably identified the policy as one of the prime reasons young people are abandoning the former Mormon Church. Perhaps Oaks doing so is akin to giving McConkie a chance to walk back some of his racial comments when the Church's racial policy changed in 1978. It probably stuck in McConkie's craw too, but he sucked it up and supported the non-Jim Crow policy.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Rob4Hope
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:49 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:34 pm
I don't get the need for an apology. Church says you must live by standards A,B and C in order to take part in their idiotic initiations. It is their right to change their standards at any time. Member "Bob" can either conform to these standards in hopes of achieving their Kolobian kingdom. Or, member can tell church to go screw themselves and raise their kids to be happy with who they are.
I get this part and understand. For a long time I have wondered about the power the church has in lives. For example, trying to make the church change a policy, or having them apologize means THEY STILL have power. If someone simply "walks away", their power ends.

Here is a hypothetical. Suppose you have a screaming man in the street. He is a nuisance, and there are people out there trying over and over to get him to shut up! They beg him, threaten him, try to appease him, try to reason with him,...but the guy will not shut up. Yes,..he is a nuisance.

Now, suppose, because this guy is not shutting up, those who are working to quiet him get emotionally distraught, even hurt by his conduct. The guy is making a scene, and others are feeling emotionally hurt because of it. Well,...there is one option not being considered by the people who are trying to shut this guy up...and that is "walk away".

I think this is one way I see Blashyrkh's post. Those of us who have left (and I am one) don't need a relationship with the church. I've thought about this and I don't need them to apologize (for me). Why?...because I don't need a relationship with them. They no longer have power over how I feel. They can scream all they want. I happen to thing the Q15 leaders are total A$$holes....period.

Frankly, I don't want to lower myself to them for an apology. I don't want to be around them at all...but that is only me. Others have different circumstances.
Blashyrkh wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:34 pm
Sorry, but anyone who gets their feelings hurt or allows these geriatric conmen to hurt their kids feelings with their ever changing "revelations" deserves what they get.
This part I don't completely agree with. Part of the reason is there are victims out there who didn't get to have a choice. Who?...the kids (as one example). When a family is highly involved in the church and the church makes a policy that disenfranchises children (for lack of a better word) resulting on ostracism and emotional pain, well that crosses a line. The parents of the kids might not need an apology--they had a choice. But the children do. Those who have been driven to attempt suicide DO deserve an apology--provided they were not in a place to make a choice but were hurt.

However, I also see the culpability resting to a large degree with the parents...but not completely.

I think there is a line between taking responsibility for yourself, and being victimized. In my mind, to say that that people "deserve what they get"...are you including the children who are the victims? I think you were referring to the parents who are allowing themselves to be lead around in ways that DO hurt their children. In this case, I can understand the point--its the screaming man thing like above. But, when we are talking about honest victims?...that is where I disagree.

There is also the argument of yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded room, causing a panic where people trample each other. That is not a victimless action; its a crime.

In a way, is what the church doing in some ways similar? So, on this point I also disagree.

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Hagoth
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by Hagoth » Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:19 pm

This whole thing has also been a disservice to believing members. I had lunch with a TBM friend yesterday. He hadn't heard the news, and although I wanted to talk about why it changed, he spent the whole time defending the November '15 policy. He has spent 3 1/2 years convincing himself that it was what God wanted and now they expect him to just flip that switch off?

So, the Q15 can step out of their bubble and drop a turd on their followers and then recede back into the warm sycophantic ambiance of the bubble. They won't be seen debating it in public or trying to explain it to outsiders, but the rank and file members are out there in the real world get stuck with defending the bigotry that was foisted upon them with no warning. Then, when they are really invested, those leaders step out of the bubble again and say, "Hey, what do you know, God changed his mind. You can stop defending our November 2015 discrimination and fall back to our October 2015 discrimination." Bloip! (the sound of slipping back into the bubble).
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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alas
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by alas » Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:44 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:49 am
Blashyrkh wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:34 pm
I don't get the need for an apology. Church says you must live by standards A,B and C in order to take part in their idiotic initiations. It is their right to change their standards at any time. Member "Bob" can either conform to these standards in hopes of achieving their Kolobian kingdom. Or, member can tell church to go screw themselves and raise their kids to be happy with who they are.
I get this part and understand. For a long time I have wondered about the power the church has in lives. For example, trying to make the church change a policy, or having them apologize means THEY STILL have power. If someone simply "walks away", their power ends.

Here is a hypothetical. Suppose you have a screaming man in the street. He is a nuisance, and there are people out there trying over and over to get him to shut up! They beg him, threaten him, try to appease him, try to reason with him,...but the guy will not shut up. Yes,..he is a nuisance.

Now, suppose, because this guy is not shutting up, those who are working to quiet him get emotionally distraught, even hurt by his conduct. The guy is making a scene, and others are feeling emotionally hurt because of it. Well,...there is one option not being considered by the people who are trying to shut this guy up...and that is "walk away".

I think this is one way I see Blashyrkh's post. Those of us who have left (and I am one) don't need a relationship with the church. I've thought about this and I don't need them to apologize (for me). Why?...because I don't need a relationship with them. They no longer have power over how I feel. They can scream all they want. I happen to thing the Q15 leaders are total A$$holes....period.

Frankly, I don't want to lower myself to them for an apology. I don't want to be around them at all...but that is only me. Others have different circumstances.
Blashyrkh wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:34 pm
Sorry, but anyone who gets their feelings hurt or allows these geriatric conmen to hurt their kids feelings with their ever changing "revelations" deserves what they get.
This part I don't completely agree with. Part of the reason is there are victims out there who didn't get to have a choice. Who?...the kids (as one example). When a family is highly involved in the church and the church makes a policy that disenfranchises children (for lack of a better word) resulting on ostracism and emotional pain, well that crosses a line. The parents of the kids might not need an apology--they had a choice. But the children do. Those who have been driven to attempt suicide DO deserve an apology--provided they were not in a place to make a choice but were hurt.

However, I also see the culpability resting to a large degree with the parents...but not completely.

I think there is a line between taking responsibility for yourself, and being victimized. In my mind, to say that that people "deserve what they get"...are you including the children who are the victims? I think you were referring to the parents who are allowing themselves to be lead around in ways that DO hurt their children. In this case, I can understand the point--its the screaming man thing like above. But, when we are talking about honest victims?...that is where I disagree.

There is also the argument of yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded room, causing a panic where people trample each other. That is not a victimless action; its a crime.

In a way, is what the church doing in some ways similar? So, on this point I also disagree.
I agree that it IS different for children. They do not yet have the cognitive ability to make the choice.

But, totally no sympathy for my sister in law who was a rabid homophobe and totally believes all the crap the church puts out about homosexuals. It is a choice, so it kills her when her first husband chooses a man over her. Then her daughter comes out gay, and rather than examining the church, she dumps the crap from the church on her teen daughter. So, her own daughter cut her out of her life. I know that hurt, but she deserved it.

A child though, they do not have the cognitive ability to sort through all the different ideas. They cannot recognize when their parents are dead wrong, just like abused children lame themselves for abuse, a child of homophobes will blame themselves. Unless there is support somewhere in that child’s life to help them sort and put the blame on the church, they will blame themselves and end up depressed because they think they have some huge flaw that they are the way they are.

So, I totally blame the church for abusing defenseless children by telling them their sexual feelings are a sin. The church owes them an apology.

Mormon 8
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by Mormon 8 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:48 pm

Members were ex'd over the policy change in late 2015 and there were even suicides over it and now the church does a 180 as if it's no big deal as they mess with peoples' lives with no apology? Disgusting. But it's not a church, it's a massive real estate corporation masquerading as a church. Abhorrent.

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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by Rob4Hope » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:50 am

Mormon 8 wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:48 pm
But it's not a church, it's a massive real estate corporation masquerading as a church. Abhorrent.
BULLZEYE

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wtfluff
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by wtfluff » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:23 pm

Relevant quote?
The best apology is changed behavior.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

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alas
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by alas » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:03 am

wtfluff wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:23 pm
Relevant quote?
The best apology is changed behavior.
Actually, I think the best apology is restitution.




But for cases like kids committing suicide, if they can’t accomplish restitution, they need to grovel a little.....or a lot, then change their behavior.

But then, I am a believer in NDE, and those experiences suggest that the offender will come face to face with exactly how much pain they caused, and they will actually feel that pain, then we will see the groveling.

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Hagoth
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by Hagoth » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:51 am

alas wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:03 am
...the offender will come face to face with exactly how much pain they caused, and they will actually feel that pain, then we will see the groveling.
The Brethren's worst nightmare would be that the judgement they are constantly warning us about turns out to be real.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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alas
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by alas » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:31 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:51 am
alas wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:03 am
...the offender will come face to face with exactly how much pain they caused, and they will actually feel that pain, then we will see the groveling.
The Brethren's worst nightmare would be that the judgement they are constantly warning us about turns out to be real.
Yes, you have to wonder about their thinking, when they somehow feel that hurting people for what they think is the greater good is OK with Jesus. Even if it *WAS* for the greater good, that kind of thinking is evil. And it usually ends up not being that good for most people. It reminds me of that story about the town where everything is perfect, except that one child is being tortured so they can have their wonderful town. Some of them see the child and they leave the wonderful town for the real world where everybody suffers.

But that thinking is every where in the church. Especially in the folk doctrine. Women can’t have priesthood because then men would feel they are not needed. So, it is just fine if the women feel they are not needed? Blacks cannot have priesthood yet because the whites are not ready yet. So, it is fine that blacks suffer until whites stop being racist? That is really racist reasoning. Let’s lie about the history so that members won’t leave the church. It is fine if some children are denied baptism as long as we make sure that their married gay parents are not accepted so that people see that being gay is evil. We don’t want people thinking it is OK.

I think I will go throw up breakfast.

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wtfluff
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by wtfluff » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:11 am

alas wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:03 am
wtfluff wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:23 pm
Relevant quote?
The best apology is changed behavior.
Actually, I think the best apology is restitution.
I'm pretty sure restitution would be considered changed behavior. (Yes, I'm joking... Your point is most excellent, Dear Froggy.)

The quote hit me because of the way the Q15 directors made the big, important announcement about removing the published bigotry in their handbook, and then went right ahead and continued with hateful speeches during their convention.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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Hagoth
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Re: THEY MUST APOLOGIZE!

Post by Hagoth » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:55 am

alas wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:31 am
Women can’t have priesthood because then men would feel they are not needed. So, it is just fine if the women feel they are not needed? Blacks cannot have priesthood yet because the whites are not ready yet. So, it is fine that blacks suffer until whites stop being racist? That is really racist reasoning. Let’s lie about the history so that members won’t leave the church. It is fine if some children are denied baptism as long as we make sure that their married gay parents are not accepted so that people see that being gay is evil. We don’t want people thinking it is OK.
But don't forget the central "explanation" for all of this: God's ways are not our ways.

No matter how stupid and harmful a policy is it's our fault for expecting more because we are too short sighted to recognize that sometimes bad things are really good things in disguise. And if they turn out to still be bad, it's because God sent you down the wrong road to teach you the difference.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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