Is everyone going to be white and delightsome in the celestial kingdom?

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jfro18
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Is everyone going to be white and delightsome in the celestial kingdom?

Post by jfro18 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:12 pm

There's a quote from Oaks from GenCon that is getting more attention today where he says "Every other label, even including occupation, race, physical characteristics, or honors, is temporary or trivial in eternal terms."

I know the church teaches in the BoM that the curse on skin is to make the Lamanites unattractive to the white and delightsome people, and that by becoming pure again they will have their skin turn white again.

What I never really thought about though is that these teachings imply that everyone will be white in the CK, correct?

So black members who are faithful will be resurrected as white people with the curse removed?

I don't know why I never thought about that until today, but that's so incredibly abhorrent but is really the only way to take the teachings unless I'm missing something.

Imagine telling Native Americans that the Book of Mormon is their ancestors history (which it isn't) and that if they follow the book they'll end up white in heaven. I can't think of a more offensive thing to tell a group of people, but that's the implication.

Am I missing something?

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moksha
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Re: Is everyone going to be white and delightsome in the celestial kingdom?

Post by moksha » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:46 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:12 pm
Am I missing something?
Sounds like you got everything, except perhaps the Smith family monopoly on... Celestial SunBlock lotion.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Reuben
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Re: Is everyone going to be white and delightsome in the celestial kingdom?

Post by Reuben » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:22 am

To be fair, President Oaks did say "or trivial." Race might be trivial, not temporary. You get to choose how to understand what he said, which seems to be a feature of discourse during times when doctrine is changing.

Mormons are a strange bunch. It seems every other fundamentalist religion teaches something like "Everyone who isn't like us in every way that counts is going to hell." Mormonism teaches "Everyone who gets the greatest rewards will become like us in every way that counts." It's more compassionate and almost as arrogant.

Skin color used to count. Now for most believers it doesn't.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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jfro18
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Re: Is everyone going to be white and delightsome in the celestial kingdom?

Post by jfro18 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:25 am

Reuben wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:22 am
To be fair, President Oaks did say "or trivial." Race might be trivial, not temporary. You get to choose how to understand what he said, which seems to be a feature of discourse during times when doctrine is changing.

Mormons are a strange bunch. It seems every other fundamentalist religion teaches something like "Everyone who isn't like us in every way that counts is going to hell." Mormonism teaches "Everyone who gets the greatest rewards will become like us in every way that counts." It's more compassionate and almost as arrogant.

Skin color used to count. Now for most believers it doesn't.
I get that it could be trivial in how he was stating it (although I'd argue if it was trivial there would've been no reason to ban blacks for 130 years from the priesthood, so clearly it's not trivial to the church), but even if you put that aside.

The church teaches through the BoM that as you become good your skin will be white and delightsome and that in the CK we all are resurrected to our 'perfect' selves. Wouldn't that mean we'd all be white in the CK?

I know the church would never admit that because it would be such a jarring statement to make, but they would literally claim if whites sexed up the Indians that their children would be whiter because white is purity.

Certainly not the biggest thing to worry about with church stuff, but it was something that never crossed my mind before.

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Ghost
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Re: Is everyone going to be white and delightsome in the celestial kingdom?

Post by Ghost » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:02 am

I don't know about skin color, but I always liked this tangential story.
A WILY PROPHET.

In the days when Brigham Young was directing
the theocratic government of Utah, the Mormon
missionaries in England converted a one-legged man
near Dulwich. This man, now strong in faith, con-
ceived the idea that the prophet in Salt Lake City
might effect a miraculous restoration of the leg which
he had lost in an accident. So a month later he
presented himself, weary and travel-stained, but full
of cheerful hope, before the head of the Mormon
Church, and told his desires. Strange as it may seem,
the prophet said he would willingly get him a new
leg ; but begged him first to consider the matter fully.
This life, he told him, is but a vale of tears, and as
nothing compared to eternity. He was making the
choice of going through life with one leg and having
two after the resurrection, or of having two legs
through life and three after. The man found the
prospect of being a human tripod through
all eternity so uncongenial that he accepted with
resignation his present lot and excused the prophet
from performing the miracle.
Image

https://archive.org/stream/today5618jer ... o_djvu.txt

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Phil Lurkerman
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Re: Is everyone going to be white and delightsome in the celestial kingdom?

Post by Phil Lurkerman » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:56 pm

Reuben wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:22 am
Skin color used to count. Now for most believers it doesn't.
It is amazing how malleable LDS doctrine has proven.

I remember this topic being openly discussed in seminary back in the 1980s and the un-problematic answer being, "Yes, of course everyone will be white in the Celestial Kingdom."

Now, not only would the question be generally avoided, but most
members would likely not think of race as a significant issue at all.

That's the advantage of a made-up belief system - you change it whenever necessary.
I was once a cafeteria Mormon on a hunger strike. Have since found a buffet elsewhere.

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