Thoughts on tithing

[Mackman]

I struggled for years trying to pay tithing and I say struggled because that is what it was as I have never had a really good job where I dont have to really watch my pennies. I have a hard time going without basic needs such as food, gas to get to work , clothes etc etc just to be able to pay tithing to a corporation that is not rich just has billions in dollars and assets. My TBM wife says we will reap the blessings of tithing (still waiting 35 years on) . I dont mind supporting the church with say 50.00 to $100.00 a month but I am tired of finding ways to get gas money while general authorities are paid a "small stipend". 10% seems too much for a bunch of greedy old white dudes. Thought ?

[dogbite]

Rock Waterman used to have a good article on tithing on increase or surplus as the actual scriptural intent. The 10% on income is a modern cashgrab. Cant find that blog post anymore; seems puremoromonism is gone?

think i found it

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/ ... thing.html

[moksha]

The two constants you could count on in Nephite America were death and tithing.

[Corsair]

I am a consummate liar. I don't pay any tithing and I continue to report that I am a full tithe payer to my bishop each year. It's a science experiment where I am also keeping a current temple recommend despite many amusing infractions of the temple recommend questions. I'm waiting for the Spirit of Discernment to kick in and someone to call me out. It turns out that putitng a smile on your face while you lie to spiritual leaders is an excellent way to reassure them that everything is going fine.

Let me provide my absolutely flimsy excuse for my dramatic non-payment. I paid on gross earnings for many years until my faith transition. As far as I am concerned I paid more than enough to them for the first four decades of my life and I have no desire to continue this. I paid a lot of money that could have gone for a lot of things and I simply don't trust the institutional church at this point. I trust my local leadership, but I don't get to pay anything to them, after all.

The next obvious question is about what my dear, believing wife feels about this. Frankly, she is horrified by the situation and honestly hates to attend tithing settlement with me. I was able to skip tithing settlement in 2017, but I got cornered in 2018 and ended up attending. I need to have the right answer when the executive secretary tries to get me signed up in 2019.

[deacon blues]

The problem with the Church and temple recommends is that they don’t apply the parable of the Pharisee and the publican ( Luke 18)to the process. LDS don’t understand that we are all sinners, yes even the apostles and prophets and seers.

[Palerider]

Here's my take on tithing.

1. It has to be done with a willing heart, otherwise it becomes a curse if it is done begrudgingly. See Exodus quote below:

"Take ye from among you an offering unto the Lord: whosoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it, an offering of the Lord; gold, and silver, and brass..."

The Lord was asking for an offering to help build the Tabernacle in the wilderness. If the individual wasn't able to do it with a willing heart, the Lord didn't want the offering. That would only make his standing worse.

2. Now regarding the deceitful way the church asks for money. Unless the participant chooses to give more than is wise considering their personal financial situation; wisdom should dictate that you don't hurt yourself in order to make a contribution.

The church's approach is misguided, selfish and corrupt. If they really believed their own scriptures they would counsel members to follow the scripture from Mosiah below:

"And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength."

Church leadership often characterize tithing as a "sacrifice" that the Lord requires, when in reality the moment they say the Lord demands this sacrifice is the same moment that free agency is destroyed because it can no longer be offered with a willing heart.

It seems wisdom would/should dictate that an individual give what they feel in their heart that they are able and use the rest of their income to improve their lot in life so that they are able to give even more heartfelt offerings in the future.

Personally we paid tithing the "church way" for years and in my opinion it only served to make it even more difficult to break out of poverty.
At least I would have felt better if it had gone to actually help people in need rather than to build up a corrupt pyramid scheme.....

Thankfully we now pay tithing in a way that truly helps people to escape poverty and we can track where every dime goes. It's a great feeling.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Paid net for first few decades, felt guilt after comparing to friends choices and like a sucker paid on gross for several years.

Then faith crisis and talked wife into surplus and then finally couldn't stomach even that on my conscience anymore. I allow my wife to still pay a small half surplus amount on my income just to satisfy her conscience and keep our relationship intact. I figure it is cheaper than child support and alimony.

[Arcturus]

Listen to Bokovoy's interview with John Dehlin. He shuts down, with Old Testament authority, the idea of an institutionalized tithing process. I also agree with the previous posts that talk about surplus. I think that's a pretty easy conclusion to come to with LDS scripture.

Last thing, the church doesn't need your money. They have too much money (a range of $400-600 billion). And they're not transparent with it. If you want to live a law of tithing in your life then give it to actual people in need (homeless, charity of your choice, scholarship funds, etc.). If you and your DW are cool with saying in your recommend interview that you pay a full tithe, awesome.

[Newme]

This is how I’ve seen & explained church tithes etc...

Financial irresponsibility (which contribute to debt, bankruptcy, poverty and related suffering) is undeniable. Changing scripture from what it states (increase) to mean “income” to get more money, is not of Christ. The reason God commanded tithe be based on increase is shown in the following example:

• 2 men earn the exact same income amount.
  1 man is the sole provider of a family of 7 and after paying bills has no increase left.
  2nd man lives with his parents who pay all his bills, so all of his income is increase.
  Yet, the church demand$ the $ame amount from each man - thereby causing the 1st family to be poor. Christ was about alleviating poverty and suffering - not causing more.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (conveniently ignored in lds curriculums) states that tithing collectors are to give at least 1/3 of TITHES to those in need. Christ asked those who can, to give much more.

While we are often pressured and shamed into giving “honest tithes,” church leaders keep money dark and secret, though Oaks did admit no tithes go to the poor. Funds intended for the poor go to the corporate empire of mormon leaders and we have no clue or say in how it’s spent. We do know the church had some elaborate malls built, and a list of greedy wordly companies using the name of Jesus Christ in vain. Meanwhile, about 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving. Who do TITHES belong to? God. And how do we love God? By loving the least of these.

[Palerider]

• 2 men earn the exact same income amount.
  1 man is the sole provider of a family of 7 and after paying bills has no increase left.
  2nd man lives with his parents who pay all his bills, so all of his income is increase.
  Yet, the church demand$ the $ame amount from each man - thereby causing the 1st family to be poor.

Tithing was originally given anciently when life was much more agrarian. Here's how I understand "increase".

A man inherits 11 cows from his father to begin his own herd with. Not to be too pedantic, he gives one cow to the priest as a tithe on the entire eleven cows. The tithe on those cows has now been paid. He never has to pay a tithe on them again.

The following spring each of his 10 cows gives birth to 10 calves. Those 10 calves are his increase. He gives one of those calves to the priest as a tithe on the other nine calves. He never has to pay a tithe on those calves again.

How does that work for a wage earner in modern times? I would say that after all the necessities of life have been met each year e.g. electric bill, gas bill, mortgage payment, food, clothing,....you get the picture. If there are any savings left then 10 % could be paid on that increase. An honest person would know how to do this. A dishonest one will only fool themselves.

Church leadership exploits and takes advantage of the poor rather than truly helping them.

[2bizE]

In the middle of a financial crisis, Lorenzo Snow states in Conference:
"....I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child ... shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing....”
Teachings of Lorenzo Snow manual:
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of ... t?lang=eng

However, the church replaced some of his words with an ellipse (...). What he actually said was:
Lorenzo Snow said in the 1899 Conference Address "...I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing..."

Now, do you have the means to pay tithing? Doesn’t sound like it.

[blazerb]

In the middle of a financial crisis, Lorenzo Snow states in Conference:
"....I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child ... shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing....”
Teachings of Lorenzo Snow manual:
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of ... t?lang=eng

However, the church replaced some of his words with an ellipse (...). What he actually said was:
Lorenzo Snow said in the 1899 Conference Address "...I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing..."

Now, do you have the means to pay tithing? Doesn’t sound like it.

I need to remember this the next time that a TBM tells me that the church never hides anything.

[Not Buying It]

How bad should anyone really feel about not giving 10% of their income to a made up religion?

[RubinHighlander]

How bad should anyone really feel about not giving 10% of their income to a made up religion?

Ya know, if TSCC spent a reasonable percentage of those donations on helping human suffering, I would have felt so much better about paying it. As it is, it's a small to zero percentage of tithing and the humanitarian efforts also comes right off the backs of the locals from fast offerings and other donations.


I'm one of the zealous ignorant ones who paid on Gross for over 30 years, through several times of famine. One time in particular; I'd been unemployed for over a year, still paying on the much smaller income I had with some consulting work. I never felt the blessings of paying it, but did it out of fear, guilt and duty.

[Just This Guy]

One thing I will say is that my greatest financial struggles were while DW and I paid are TSCC membership dues. Once we fell away, financially thing have been up and down. I've been laid off and hired. I have had several jobs, but have moved up. I am doing better now than I ever way paying to LDS Inc. Now, not only am I in a better financial position* now as a nonmember, but DW and I try to tithe ourselves by giving to all sorts of charitable causes. We enjoy looking for how we can help. I know where my money goes to and we make sure it is doing good to people.

So I would like to bare my testimony that by not following the "law of tithing" I have had the windows of heaven open and I was able to improve myself and to give to my community much more than I ever was able to when I was following it.


* Higher salary, less dept, more savings.

[Newme]

• 2 men earn the exact same income amount.
  1 man is the sole provider of a family of 7 and after paying bills has no increase left.
  2nd man lives with his parents who pay all his bills, so all of his income is increase.
  Yet, the church demand$ the $ame amount from each man - thereby causing the 1st family to be poor.

Tithing was originally given anciently when life was much more agrarian. Here's how I understand "increase".

A man inherits 11 cows from his father to begin his own herd with. Not to be too pedantic, he gives one cow to the priest as a tithe on the entire eleven cows. The tithe on those cows has now been paid. He never has to pay a tithe on them again.

The following spring each of his 10 cows gives birth to 10 calves. Those 10 calves are his increase. He gives one of those calves to the priest as a tithe on the other nine calves. He never has to pay a tithe on those calves again.

How does that work for a wage earner in modern times? I would say that after all the necessities of life have been met each year e.g. electric bill, gas bill, mortgage payment, food, clothing,....you get the picture. If there are any savings left then 10 % could be paid on that increase. An honest person would know how to do this. A dishonest one will only fool themselves.

Church leadership exploits and takes advantage of the poor rather than truly helping them.

That makes sense how they did it anciently.

And I agree that the church takes advantage of the poor. If what Christ said is true - there will be hell they’ll pay...

[John G.]

One thing I will say is that my greatest financial struggles were while DW and I paid are TSCC membership dues. Once we fell away, financially thing have been up and down. I've been laid off and hired. I have had several jobs, but have moved up. I am doing better now than I ever way paying to LDS Inc. Now, not only am I in a better financial position* now as a nonmember, but DW and I try to tithe ourselves by giving to all sorts of charitable causes. We enjoy looking for how we can help. I know where my money goes to and we make sure it is doing good to people.

So I would like to bare my testimony that by not following the "law of tithing" I have had the windows of heaven open and I was able to improve myself and to give to my community much more than I ever was able to when I was following it.


* Higher salary, less dept, more savings.

I felt the ex-Spirit (from Dave, the Holy Ghost’s cool cousin) reading your ex-testimony! It truly was edifying! May I also add my ex-mo testimony of the power of putting your tithing money into retirement accounts and witnessing the Miracle of Compound Interest and Investment Gains! Truly amazing watching your dollars multiply and be fruitful!

[Advocate]

The cultural LDS view on tithing being 10% of a wage-earners gross or net income doesn't make sense and isn't supported by scripture. One thing I've tried to do is differentiate between actual LDS doctrine (i.e. teachings in scriptures or by prophets or apostles) and cultural LDS doctrine (i.e. comments made in ward, Ensign articles, teachings by seventys, etc.). Even to a TBM, cultural LDS doctrine isn't binding on anyone.

With that in mind, consider these cultural LDS doctrines on tithing:

1) If you want gross blessings, pay gross tithing. Net tithing only gives net blessings.
2) Pay tithing on the amount you want to earn next year and you will earn that amount next year. (Teaching recently given by President Nelson's wife)
3) Pay tithing before you provide for your family. If you have to choose between tithing and food for your starving children, pay tithing. (Article in Ensign and talk by seventy in general conference).

Now compare actual doctrines on tithing:

1) First presidency letter from 1970 on tithing (basically says nobody has the right/authority to say more than what is said therein)
2) D&C 120 (Rock Waterman's blog gave me a lot of insight on how words were used when this revelation was received, as opposed to how we use words today)
3) JST Genesis 14:39
4) 1 Timothy 5:8


You will quickly see that the cultural teachings on tithing don't hold up to actual doctrine on tithing.

For some reason, many church leaders seem to want more tithing from members (see D&C 121:36-45). For example, Elder Holland gave a talk on tithing where he used selective quotes from earlier church leaders. However, when you look up the original quotes you found that Elder Holland omitted portions of the quotes to change the meaning, without notifying the reader. Why would someone be dishonest if they are teaching the true and correct doctrine of tithing?


For me personally, I have put tithing to the test using Alma's test of faith described in Alma 32. I found that when I paid tithing using cultural LDS doctrines that I made a certain income, was constantly stressed about finances, and regularly resorted to playing the credit card cash advance game to keep up. A few years later I put the true doctrine of tithing to the test using the test described in Alma 32. I tried paying tithing on just my increase rather than net or gross. I found that my income was larger than it had been before, I was less stressed about finances, and I no longer had to play the credit card cash advance game. As I've put my family's needs first (thus giving the church a smaller amount of money each year) my income has continued to increase and my financial stress has gone down. Alma's test bore fruit for me: by both objective (gross yearly income) and subjective (stress about finances) measures, paying tithing on increase is a true doctrine.

My personal opinion is that cultural LDS doctrine on tithing is wrong and the Lord will have his judgment. We know the Book of Mormon is written for our day. Take a look at 2 Nephi 13:14-15:

14 The Lord will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people and the princes thereof; for ye have eaten up the vineyard and the spoil of the poor in your houses.
15 What mean ye? Ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor, saith the Lord God of Hosts.

In the church today, who are the "ancients of his people and princes thereof"? I'll give you a hint, we call some of them "Elder" as a lifetime title and stand when they enter the room, just like we would stand for a king or prince. It's kind of interesting that we never hear in General Conference what it means when the Lord says that the ancients of the people grind the faces of the poor. My personal opinion is that telling someone to pay tithing rather than feeding their child is grinding the face of the poor. I think most of church leaders teachings (e.g. get married early, have kids while you are still in school, etc) are designed to keep people in the church even if it keeps many of them poor for their entire lives.

Finally, when it comes to tithing settlement each year I generally am not interested in having the above conversation with my bishop (and I suspect most bishop's don't want to have it either). To avoid it, I choose to give to the church use anonymous methods. The church has a way you can do it anonymously so only Salt Lake can see it (and your Bishop if he calls). The other way is to truly give anonymously (so not even Salt Lake knows) using a donor advised fund (read more at https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/inves ... le-giving/) which are available through many brokerages. My bishop has seen 0 donations on my account for years. One bishop asked a bit about it (he thought there was a clerical error) and I told him that we give anonymously. That ended the discussion.

[John G.]

You should try the 0% tithing plan! I guarantee your finances will get better!

[slavereeno]

It's a science experiment where I am also keeping a current temple recommend despite many amusing infractions of the temple recommend questions. I'm waiting for the Spirit of Discernment to kick in and someone to call me out.

I find this kind of funny. Not laughing at you Corsair, but the situation makes me laugh.