Chastity & Celibacy for LDS Gays

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moksha
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Chastity & Celibacy for LDS Gays

Post by moksha » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:07 pm

Coming out as gay in the LDS Church is akin to a person of color taking off his hood at a Klan rally. Sure, they might still accept him if he agrees to a lifetime daily application of skin lightener, but that means he has to forever cloak himself from the light of day.

I imagine this policy seems no more fair to LDS gays than when the United States forced Mormons to give up their cherished polygamy by threatening to seize all their assets.

Hoping President Nelson has some revelations to change things. First coffee and tea, then for LGBTs, then for women's rights. Maybe the last one is a bit far-fetched, but we can hope.

Your thoughts on this matter?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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no1saint
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Re: Chastity & Celibacy for LDS Gays

Post by no1saint » Wed May 01, 2019 1:53 am

Agreed. Physical, emotional and spiritual celibacy is no life at all. I was annoyed that Oaks proclaimed that they can’t change doctrine. That is absolute bulls**t! Modern prophesy and open canon is exactly how you can change doctrine. Fools and horses lead the Church.

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Just This Guy
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Re: Chastity & Celibacy for LDS Gays

Post by Just This Guy » Wed May 01, 2019 4:39 am

no1saint wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 1:53 am
I was annoyed that Oaks proclaimed that they can’t change doctrine.

They change doctrine all time. They changed doctrine by directly contradicting Jesus's teaching with the PoX. They changed it again when they rescinded the PoX. They changed Doctrine when the WoW went from being a recommendation to a requirement for salvation and they also changed the contents of the WoW. They changed the doctrine about polygamy back and forth multiple times.

No, a more accurate statement would be the won't change doctrine if they happen to like it. If they don't like it, or it doesn't further their current ambitions, then they can and will change it all they want.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Not Buying It
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Re: Chastity & Celibacy for LDS Gays

Post by Not Buying It » Wed May 01, 2019 5:38 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 4:39 am
no1saint wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 1:53 am
I was annoyed that Oaks proclaimed that they can’t change doctrine.

They change doctrine all time. They changed doctrine by directly contradicting Jesus's teaching with the PoX. They changed it again when they rescinded the PoX. They changed Doctrine when the WoW went from being a recommendation to a requirement for salvation and they also changed the contents of the WoW. They changed the doctrine about polygamy back and forth multiple times.

No, a more accurate statement would be the won't change doctrine if they happen to like it. If they don't like it, or it doesn't further their current ambitions, then they can and will change it all they want.
This doctrine is already changing - we are watching it happen before our very eyes. The Church has initiated a long, slow process to become more LGBT friendly. Presidents Oaks is just spinning what is clearly the beginning of a retreat on the issue.

However, for the time being it is a toxic, incredibly harmful teaching that gays should be celibate. The Church will give up on that eventually too, and any gay or lesbian who listened to them will have wasted their lonely, romantically isolated lives in vain. We should all be outraged about what this teaching is doing to our gay and lesbian friends who are members, and we should fight it with whatever influence we have.

No one should have to sacrifice their chances for having a life partner because some old men in Salt Lake City don't want to rush the changes even they see as inevitable. The Church would condemn its gay members to a lifetime of loneliness and angst without thinking twice about it, and then eventually completely nullify that sacrifice by allowing gay relationships. That's how this is going to play out - it may take a few decades, but I promise you, any gay or lesbian member who listens to this advice will live to see their sacrifice betrayed by the institution that asked it of them.
Last edited by Not Buying It on Wed May 01, 2019 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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jfro18
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Re: Chastity & Celibacy for LDS Gays

Post by jfro18 » Wed May 01, 2019 5:40 am

It's not just Mormons that do this - Catholics also take the approach of "be gay all you want but don't you dare act on it."

It's a horrible policy especially given what we now know about genetics and that it has become unmistakable that being gay is not a choice and that it is the way you are made/born/whatever.

The church will continue to hide behind the "doctrine" word until they want to change it, and then they will call whatever they do to fix it a "policy" to avoid having to throw every past prophet (and God) under the bus. They've done it before and they'll do it many times in the future.

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moksha
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Re: Chastity & Celibacy for LDS Gays

Post by moksha » Wed May 01, 2019 11:18 am

jfro18 wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:40 am
Catholics also take the approach of "be gay all you want but don't you dare act on it."
I thought that directive was for their clergy.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

DennisTate
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Re: Chastity & Celibacy for LDS Gays

Post by DennisTate » Fri May 10, 2019 7:16 am

moksha wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:07 pm
Coming out as gay in the LDS Church is akin to a person of color taking off his hood at a Klan rally. Sure, they might still accept him if he agrees to a lifetime daily application of skin lightener, but that means he has to forever cloak himself from the light of day.

I imagine this policy seems no more fair to LDS gays than when the United States forced Mormons to give up their cherished polygamy by threatening to seize all their assets.

Hoping President Nelson has some revelations to change things. First coffee and tea, then for LGBTs, then for women's rights. Maybe the last one is a bit far-fetched, but we can hope.

Your thoughts on this matter?
For starters I would point to the fact that the LDS church takes near death experience accounts very, very seriously. It is relevant that near death experiencer Ms. Betty J. Eadie was and is really good friends with near death experiencer Christian Andreason who was shown:


https://www.near-death.com/experiences/ ... n.html#a11
11. What about sexually diverse people?

God loves gay people
If this world was to ever find out just a small amount of what sexually diverse (gay) people are here to do on this planet, there would never be one single wisecrack or hurtful remark made ever again. Instead there would be great respect! People who speak disrespectful things about people of this orientation ... enact judgment, and do so from a place of unenlightenment, insecurity, ego and socially induced prejudice. Some may use mistranslated scriptures taught to them, not by the Holy Spirit ... but by fear-filled human beings. Many will choose to sustain a Divinely unsupported satanic hate-based rage against these children of God, rather than using Love to bring understanding and healing between both peoples. Christ said, THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT IS THAT WE ARE TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER! When people sling condemnation, judgment and bitterness at others, they are not practicing the great commandment. They are allowing their Souls to fall into darkness.

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Palerider
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Re: Chastity & Celibacy for LDS Gays

Post by Palerider » Fri May 10, 2019 8:27 am

no1saint wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 1:53 am
Fools and horses lead the Church.
Except horses can be taught.... :)
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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achilles
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Re: Chastity & Celibacy for LDS Gays

Post by achilles » Sat May 11, 2019 1:37 pm

and any gay or lesbian who listened to them will have wasted their lonely, romantically isolated lives in vain.
There is a lot of truth to this. I wasted thirty years of my life as a sexual being trying to be asexual. I missed out on the joys of youthful life and love. I wish so much that I could turn back the clock and have a do over. But was my life during that time a complete waste? No. I am still glad for all the people I met and all the positive experiences I had because of my membership in the church. I studied hard and pursued a teaching career and advanced degrees, and an academic career. I think I positively effected a lot of people's lives. I have many dear friends and I love my parents.

But damn, after finally kissing someone and being physically and emotionally close--it's like that movie "Pleasantville"--all of a sudden my black and white world burst into color. And now that I can notice guys and feel all of those things that I repressed for so long--damn, Toby McGuire was a hot little dude. ;)
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

― Carl Sagan

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