What is True and What Isn't?

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Mormorrisey
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What is True and What Isn't?

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue May 07, 2019 7:51 pm

Has anybody seen this little gem yet? It's been circulating around some of the youth Facebook pages, although without much commentary from the youth or the leaders. And I'm sure not going to add what I think.

https://www.lds.org/youth/article/what- ... &clang=urd

If you don't want to read it, I'll understand. Let me just give a small quote to give you a flavour, about a young girl named Caylee who found nasty stuff online about the church:

"Caylee’s grandmother didn’t preach. She simply urged her to consider which sources of information uplifted her—the online information or Church doctrine? Caylee began comparing: “Which one uplifted me? Which one brought joy and peace to my soul? Which one taught me that I would be with my family forever in a state of never-ending happiness if I followed God’s commandments? Which one put nagging voices in my head?”

So that's what the search for truth is now? How you FEEL about what you're reading, instead of evaluating which one is actually "factual" and empirically determined to be "true?" Do facts even matter to the church at this point? Is this really how "truth" is discovered, not by research or contextualization? They're not even trying at this point to hide the anti-intellectualism anymore. Yuck.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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jfro18
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by jfro18 » Tue May 07, 2019 8:07 pm

That is awful and that is exactly the kind of nonsense that makes me hate what the church is doing to doubters.

The entire talk is basically saying if you ignore anything that questions what the church is teaching, that you'll feel better. And also goes against looking at websites that are not approved by the church because they'll make you feel bad... $#%#$%$#.
Caylee has always been active in the Church. However, as she began to think deeply about the gospel and the Church, some serious questions arose in her mind. She felt guilty for questioning and began searching for answers.

“My problem,” Caylee says, “was I searched in all the wrong places. Rather than searching scriptures or conference talks and talking to my parents, I came upon different articles online claiming they had the answers to my questions.”

Initially, Caylee thought the online articles were shining light on her questions. However, she says, “As I continued investigating my questions, everything I read filled me with more and more questions and more and more doubt.”

Caylee began losing both faith and hope. “The light from my testimony was flickering,” she remembers, “and I gradually stopped doing things I had been taught—reading the scriptures, praying, and attending seminary.”

She eventually became overwhelmed by the darkness and confusion she felt. She says, “I couldn’t determine what was from God and what was a crazy idea twisted and created by someone to throw me off. I could no longer discern what was truth and what was deception. It was tearing me apart.”
That's cognitive dissonance right there - feeling uncomfortable and upset because you're coming across information that goes against what you've been raised to believe.
At this critical point, Caylee reached out to her seminary teacher, her grandmother, and her mother. Her seminary teacher assured her that her feelings weren’t wrong and that she wasn’t the only person with questions. Her teacher shared her testimony and recommended reading material that could help Caylee in her search.

Caylee’s grandmother didn’t preach. She simply urged her to consider which sources of information uplifted her—the online information or Church doctrine? Caylee began comparing: “Which one uplifted me? Which one brought joy and peace to my soul? Which one taught me that I would be with my family forever in a state of never-ending happiness if I followed God’s commandments? Which one put nagging voices in my head?”
An that is what the church wants you to do - ignore any source that tells you bad things about the church's truth claims and instead go to correlated church materials and resources... followed by ignoring critical thought and focusing on feelings.
After about two weeks of consistent effort, she felt the negative voices get quieter. School went better. Work was more enjoyable, and she had a better relationship with her parents. She was happier.

Because of that happiness, she says, “I finally saw my answer. I was able to discern what was from God and what was not because I saw firsthand what He was doing for me when I did what He asks.”

“That,” she concludes, “is the only way you can truly discern what is truth from God and what is not. We can study and ponder and question all we want, but until we do as James directs and what Joseph Smith did—ask and act—only then can we truly know what is true and what isn’t.”
Yes, if you ignore and push out researching the church, those feelings will go away (at least temporarily) because your mind is forcing them away...

That they're teaching the youth this nonsense as if it's a good thing makes my blood boil. :evil:

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Mormorrisey
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue May 07, 2019 8:12 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 8:07 pm
That they're teaching the youth this nonsense as if it's a good thing makes my blood boil. :evil:
Yep - and I'm glad I have no youth left, and mine have been taught to think a little more for themselves. Greatest joy of my life that they deal with the church as to what it IS, not what it claims to be. Just need to get Sis. M on board now - although she's not as dogmatic as she used to be, that's for sure. Some calm times in the Mormorrisey house at present, without us having to argue these points. Life's getting better!
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Not Buying It
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by Not Buying It » Tue May 07, 2019 9:00 pm

EPILOGUE

After speaking with her grandmother, Caylee felt much better about the Church - until a few weeks later when a friend referred her to essays on the LDS website that confirmed all of the negative stuff she had read online was in fact true. After that, Caylee decided she was done with the Church, which ended up making a heck of a lot more sense than trying to keep believing in it with all the messed up stuff she had found out about it.

It was rough at first, but eventually she found more peace than she’d ever found trying to make all of that Church nonsense work.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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sunstoned
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by sunstoned » Tue May 07, 2019 9:41 pm

I love happy endings.

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moksha
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by moksha » Tue May 07, 2019 10:03 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:00 pm
After speaking with her grandmother, Caylee felt much better about the Church - until a few weeks later when a friend referred her to essays on the LDS website that confirmed all of the negative stuff she had read online was in fact true. After that, Caylee decided she was done with the Church, which ended up making a heck of a lot more sense than trying to keep believing in it with all the messed up stuff she had found out about it.
The confirmation through additional resources helped wreck the Blue Pill-Red Pill choice given by the grandmother.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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1smartdodog
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by 1smartdodog » Wed May 08, 2019 5:03 am

I don’t think this is a new tactic by the church. It has always trumpeted feelings over facts. I just don’t think it is as effective as it use to be, and will be less so as time goes on.


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Mormorrisey
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by Mormorrisey » Wed May 08, 2019 5:43 am

1smartdodog wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 5:03 am
I don’t think this is a new tactic by the church. It has always trumpeted feelings over facts. I just don’t think it is as effective as it use to be, and will be less so as time goes on.
I think you're right, but it just seems so jarring now - maybe that's a result of me turning my brain on for the last 6 or 7 years. But how could I have forgotten to include this gem from Oaks during his "gender is eternal" talk from October 2018?

"The methods of science lead us to what we call scientific truth. But “scientific truth” is not the whole of life. Those who do not learn “by study and also by faith” limit their understanding of truth to what they can verify by scientific means. That puts artificial limits on their pursuit of truth."

Yeah, this ain't new, I guess, but I can't imagine someone like Hinckley saying this crap. The anti-intellectualism just seems so aggressive now.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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jfro18
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by jfro18 » Wed May 08, 2019 5:47 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 5:43 am

Yeah, this ain't new, I guess, but I can't imagine someone like Hinckley saying this crap. The anti-intellectualism just seems so aggressive now.
I think you summed it up perfectly - just look at how aggressive it has been in 2019 alone. We had the Renlunds worldwide youth devotional to demonize doubters and critics, followed weeks later by the Corbridge talk to BYU where he told students to not study the "secondary questions."

Then we had Cook telling young couples that 'research is not the answer' followed by this article and there was another anti-intellectual fireside around that time too that I can't remember the name.

The church is putting a lot of effort into telling kids not to look online - even the women's leadership panel last week bashed researching online and how you have to do research with the foundation of faith.

They know why people are leaving and they are terrified that they can't control anything but trying to put enough fear into members that they don't look.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by Rob4Hope » Wed May 08, 2019 7:30 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 7:51 pm
Has anybody seen this little gem yet? It's been circulating around some of the youth Facebook pages, although without much commentary from the youth or the leaders. And I'm sure not going to add what I think.

https://www.lds.org/youth/article/what- ... &clang=urd

If you don't want to read it, I'll understand. Let me just give a small quote to give you a flavour, about a young girl named Caylee who found nasty stuff online about the church:

"Caylee’s grandmother didn’t preach. She simply urged her to consider which sources of information uplifted her—the online information or Church doctrine? Caylee began comparing: “Which one uplifted me? Which one brought joy and peace to my soul? Which one taught me that I would be with my family forever in a state of never-ending happiness if I followed God’s commandments? Which one put nagging voices in my head?”

So that's what the search for truth is now? How you FEEL about what you're reading, instead of evaluating which one is actually "factual" and empirically determined to be "true?" Do facts even matter to the church at this point? Is this really how "truth" is discovered, not by research or contextualization? They're not even trying at this point to hide the anti-intellectualism anymore. Yuck.
The idea of the Hollocaust makes me feel bad...so I believe it didn't happen. That makes me feel better.

The idea of child abuse bothers me....so I believe it didn't happen. That makes me feel better.

My brother did bad things to me when I was little. It makes me feel bad. So, I don't believe it happened. Its a false memory.

MY GAWD!....self deceipt and denial are being enthroned!

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RubinHighlander
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed May 08, 2019 8:54 am

Good job Caylee! You successfully ran away from all that uncomfortable and painful cogdis and got sucked right back into the tribe so you didn't have to face all those awful scary facts! The truth is...you are a coward and took the easier path, thus making yourself the perfect poster child for TSCC. Ignorance is bliss in your case.
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MoPag
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by MoPag » Wed May 08, 2019 9:59 am

Wow!! So much Bullsh!t!!!
Caylee has always been active in the Church. However, as she began to think deeply about the gospel and the Church, some serious questions arose in her mind. She felt guilty for questioning and began searching for answers.
Ummm red flag much? How can the writers of this article not see how screwed up just this little phrase is. It is healthy and normal for a teenager (or anyone) to ask questions. This poor girl was raised in a culture that spoon fed her guilt to the point where she feels guilty for doing normal, healthy things.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Corsair
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by Corsair » Wed May 08, 2019 10:53 am

One other aspect of Caylee's "story" is that this will be implied instruction for parents and teachers to simply not freak out when your daughter asks if she will be in a polygamous marriage in the afterlife. Caylee had adults around her who are presenting the 21st century version of the orthodox line of reasoning. In the 1970s Caylee's grandmother would have told her to stop reading anti-Mormon literature. Her seminary teacher would have told her that all will be revealed in the next world if we are worthy. We should not be hung up on those rumors and lies of apostates.

I'm waiting for youth leaders and parents to get this message. I simply have not seen it spelled out. My ward had a 5th Sunday lesson on testimony, but they were amusingly shy about actually dealing with children and difficult questions. The essays were absolutely not mentioned. Testimonies were mentioned largely with the "read, fast, and pray" strategy that has not changed since the days of David O. McKay. No real issues were mentioned.

I'm waiting for some enterprising youth in my ward to ask the dangerous questions and watch parents and leaders have to actually deal with this openly. I can't be the guy to initiate this conversation. But I might get to be the guy who makes it more complicated.

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Just This Guy
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by Just This Guy » Wed May 08, 2019 11:37 am

You know, Corsair, why don't you make up some Pass-Along cards that have the URL of the essays printed on them and leave them around the church Make them look like something that someone would use for a lesson and then "accidentally" drop them around the building.

Don't give details, but have something generic like:

"Here is a great article about Joseph Smith & the first vision"
"Read about Navoo history."
"How god reveals scripture to the modern prophets"
"Priesthood Power in the 20th Century."

A nice pic and a tinyURL to the essay.

Or even use the LDS.org website if it isn't too hard to type in.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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alas
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by alas » Wed May 08, 2019 12:07 pm

1smartdodog wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 5:03 am
I don’t think this is a new tactic by the church. It has always trumpeted feelings over facts. I just don’t think it is as effective as it use to be, and will be less so as time goes on.


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I don’t know. Wasn’t that kind of thinking how tRump got elected? He made the racists feel better about their racism. He assured his fans that they don’t have to bother with renewable energy, just keep right on using coal and fossil fuel cause climate change denial makes you feel less guilt about what humans have done to the earth. It feels better to blame Mexicans crossing the boarder illegally for all problems than to realize that problems the nation faces are complicated.

I think people in general like feelings over facts. But the church just causes more bad feelings in the younger generation who have openly gay friends. It is causing more bad feelings in women than it did in 1950s because women have closer to equality in the rest of society. I think society has just changed enough that the church no longer causes more good feelings than bad.

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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by DPRoberts » Wed May 08, 2019 12:45 pm

MoPag wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 9:59 am
Wow!! So much Bullsh!t!!!
Caylee has always been active in the Church. However, as she began to think deeply about the gospel and the Church, some serious questions arose in her mind. She felt guilty for questioning and began searching for answers.
Ummm red flag much? How canjust the writers of this article not see how screwed up just this little phrase is. It is healthy and normal for a teenager (or anyone) to ask questions. This poor girl was raised in a culture that spoon fed her guilt to the point where she feels guilty for doing normal, healthy things.
It could be that the writer is trying to express what TSCC wants someone to feel. Once they've changed the names of the people involved they seem not to have any qualms about fabricating details to support their rhetorical purpose.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

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Palerider
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by Palerider » Wed May 08, 2019 2:49 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 8:07 pm
That is awful and that is exactly the kind of nonsense that makes me hate what the church is doing to doubters.
She says, “I couldn’t determine what was from God and what was a crazy idea twisted and created by someone to throw me off. I could no longer discern what was truth and what was deception. It was tearing me apart.”
Isn't this girl's response similar to the problem many girls/women had when Joseph attempted to introduce them to polygamy? A "crazy twisted idea" that someone was trying to convince you was from God.

But the church's response is, "Just keep eating the crap until you feel better...."

So if you feel bad about what someone says or writes about the church, just keep believing. If the church teaches you something that makes you feel really BAD...just keep believing.

Seems to be the cure all for all cases of cog-dis. Don't research until you reach an INFORMED decision. Just keep believing.... :|
Last edited by Palerider on Wed May 08, 2019 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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jfro18
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by jfro18 » Wed May 08, 2019 5:38 pm

Corsair wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:53 am
I'm waiting for youth leaders and parents to get this message. I simply have not seen it spelled out. My ward had a 5th Sunday lesson on testimony, but they were amusingly shy about actually dealing with children and difficult questions. The essays were absolutely not mentioned. Testimonies were mentioned largely with the "read, fast, and pray" strategy that has not changed since the days of David O. McKay. No real issues were mentioned.

I'm waiting for some enterprising youth in my ward to ask the dangerous questions and watch parents and leaders have to actually deal with this openly. I can't be the guy to initiate this conversation. But I might get to be the guy who makes it more complicated.
They will never talk about the essays unless they need to -- those essays are meant to be hidden on lds.org and then recommended only when someone has learned enough of the problem to need reassurance and no info has been hidden.

And that's why the essays can cause more damage than good for a lot of members... of course it also works on people like my wife who are looking for *any* reason to ignore the problems. But on the whole they are losing the battle slowly but surely.

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Palerider
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by Palerider » Wed May 08, 2019 7:27 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 8:54 am
Good job Caylee! You successfully ran away from all that uncomfortable and painful cogdis and got sucked right back into the tribe so you didn't have to face all those awful scary facts! The truth is...you are a coward and took the easier path, thus making yourself the perfect poster child for TSCC. Ignorance is bliss in your case.
Teenagers are in a place and time of life where being truly courageous can be a bit of a rarity. I certainly wouldn't be too hard on this young lady for shrinking from the implications of what becoming a non-believer entail.

Someday she'll approach this again when she's more mature and probably make her stand. ;)
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Not Buying It
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Re: What is True and What Isn't?

Post by Not Buying It » Thu May 09, 2019 5:48 am

Well, you know, maybe this story happened the way that Elder Carl B. Cook said it did, but there may be a little Paul H. Dunnery going on here. The story sounds kind of embellished to me, there are quite a few lengthy quotes in the story, was he writing down everything she told him? What about this section, does this really sound like a 17 year old girl to you?
Caylee compares her situation to Joseph Smith’s when he said, “At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to ‘ask of God’ [James 1:5], concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture” (Joseph Smith—History 1:13).
Or this:
“That,” she concludes, “is the only way you can truly discern what is truth from God and what is not. We can study and ponder and question all we want, but until we do as James directs and what Joseph Smith did—ask and act—only then can we truly know what is true and what isn’t.”
It sounds more like a Conference talk than the words of a 17 year old girl. I don’t know, maybe it all fell out the way he claims, but parts of the story sound embellished, if not outright fabricated, to me. It just doesn’t strike me as how things work with a 17 year old girl, but I could be wrong.

Gotta love he way he gets the butt-kiss quote of President Nelson in at the end. But President Nelson is pretty old, if he were smart about it he’d be kissing President Oaks’ butt, that’s the better long-term strategy if you want to climb the Church’s corporate ladder.
Last edited by Not Buying It on Thu May 09, 2019 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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