The Great Rib Debate

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moksha
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The Great Rib Debate

Post by moksha » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:40 pm

Over at some LDS board: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/719 ... e-the-rib/

there is an ongoing discussion as to whether Eve was created from the rib of Adam was literal or merely a figurative manner of speech, as in the matter of Peor vs Madam Patterini.

Those on the literal side (such as much beloved poster Cinepro) are citing the reasonings/revealings of President Nelson. Those on the metaphorical side are more hardcore apologists.

One bit of scientific wisdom I have appreciated from President Nelson in the past was when he observed that the Milky Way Galaxy was not a spiral, but rather a three-dollar bill from the Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company.

For those of you briefed on cloning methods, what are your opinions in this Great Rib Debate?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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dogbite
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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by dogbite » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:56 pm

euphemism for the penis / baculum

https://redeeminggod.com/boners-in-the-bible/

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Corsair
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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by Corsair » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:37 pm

moksha wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:40 pm
For those of you briefed on cloning methods, what are your opinions in this Great Rib Debate?
I'm on the metaphorical side, but I think that the debate says more about religious positions in the modern day rather than actual anatomy used in the Genesis Creation story. The more interesting question for me is how would one side or the other in this debate possibly demonstrate to the other that one way was objectively right and the other was wrong. Religious questions reliably end up in epistemology, eventually.

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Just This Guy
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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:27 am

It is interesting what the implications are with this discussion. I don't care for the actual discussion itself, but what it says about the positions people have on it.

If you take the Bible literally, that the earth was made in 6 days, ~6000 years ago, then by that logic, you would almost have to consider that god literally took a rib from Adam to create a body for Eve's spirit to inhabit.

On the counter, if you consider the rib to be figurative and symbolic, that opens the door wide open to what else is symbolic? If the rib was just symbolism, then the whole creation can be considered symbolism. You can also take vast portions of the Bible and make them into symbolism as well.

You can't have a literal 6 day creation and a figurative rib.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Hagoth
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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:31 am

I know I have shared this before, but it seems appropriate here. We had a gospel doctrine teacher who said God encoded the method of Eve's creation into an earthly word. He showed a slide of the word deoxyribonucleic acid. He was dead serious.

I think it's kind of sad that people are spending time and personal/emotional energy trying to make these stories literal. Maybe we should debate the actual location of the Bat Cave or Fortress of Solitude.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by wtfluff » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:32 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:31 am
I think it's kind of sad that people are spending time and personal/emotional energy trying to make these stories literal. Maybe we should debate the actual location of the Bat Cave or Fortress of Solitude.
Agreed. If we're going to debate about fiction, there are much better/more interesting books; Did the sorting hat mess up? Should Harry really have been in Slytherin?
Last edited by wtfluff on Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Not Buying It
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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:06 am

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:32 am
Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:31 am
I think it's kind of sad that people are spending time and personal/emotional energy trying to make these stories literal. Maybe we should debate the actual location of the Bat Cave or Fortress of Solitude.
Agreed. If we're going to debate about fiction, there are much better/more interesting books; Did the sorting ht mess up? Should Harry really have been in Slytherin?
I think about this sometimes when I wonder if I have lost something by disengaging with the Church in terms of spiritual discussions in classes and with other members. When I remember that most of those conversations involved imaginary characters who were no more real than Frodo or Hagrid or Fiver or Muad'Dib, and those imaginary characters come from books I find more inspiring than I ever found the Book of Mormon, and when I remember how shallow and superficial most of those allegedly spiritual discussions were - well, then it becomes crystal clear I haven't lost anything. And Frodo makes for a much more interesting conversation than that two-dimensional cardboard cutout character Nephi.

I can't believe I wasted so many hours of my life talking about made up stuff back when I was a believing member.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:42 am

I've been spending some time looking at some of the historical geology and so forth. You know, there is a REALLY compelling argument that the Sphynx pre-dates the Great Pyramid like 5,000 years or so. The Sphynx has water erosion on it...the kind that comes from rain--LOTS of rain. Historically according to some pretty smart scientists who are in general agreement, that pre-dates the last ice-age.

Interesting stuff to say the least. And when this info came out (and its been peer-reviewed and accepted in geological journals), the archeologists are flipping out. Why?....because they have to change THEIR position to account for the new information, and they don't want to. Could it be that these archeologists were WRONG in the first place about some pretty big stuff? OH GAWD...HEAVEN FORBID! WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO!!!!

Stubborn egotistical people who call themselves scientists. UGGG...

I bring this up because my entire position has changed and continues to change. There is some pretty compelling evidence that intelligent life (as in humanoid type life) existed on this plant BEFORE and DURING the last ice-age. But, how can this be since guys like BRM and JFS said there was no death on this planet BEFORE Adam took the fruit? And, how does this all bode with the bible?

If you can believe the story at all of Adam and Eve, it can ONLY be taken figuratively, but in my case, I think the entire story is just that--a story. I mean how can you explain that Babylonian texts pre-date the bible and have differences? Looks like Moses (if he existed that is) plagiarized as well?

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Hagoth
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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:40 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:42 am
Stubborn egotistical people who call themselves scientists. UGGG...
It's a fascinating idea but the problem is that this hypothesis attributes the sphinx to an advanced culture that left no other artifacts. If evidence of an ice-age society capable of creating structures like the sphinx did show up it would certainly be a major breakthrough. Theories of ancient astronauts and cultures that predate archaeological evidence suffer from exactly the same problems as Nephites and Jaredites. I see no need to write off the entire discipline as stubborn and egotistical because it continues to give weight to the body of evidence. If evidence of such a civilization does turn up no one will be as ecstatic about it as the archaeological community. They live for that kind of stuff.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by Rob4Hope » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:34 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:40 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:42 am
Stubborn egotistical people who call themselves scientists. UGGG...
It's a fascinating idea but the problem is that this hypothesis attributes the sphinx to an advanced culture that left no other artifacts. If evidence of an ice-age society capable of creating structures like the sphinx did show up it would certainly be a major breakthrough. Theories of ancient astronauts and cultures that predate archaeological evidence suffer from exactly the same problems as Nephites and Jaredites. I see no need to write off the entire discipline as stubborn and egotistical because it continues to give weight to the body of evidence. If evidence of such a civilization does turn up no one will be as ecstatic about it as the archaeological community. They live for that kind of stuff.
Its there.

http://gobeklitepe.info/

There are other artifacts,...a massive one.

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moksha
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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by moksha » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:25 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:34 pm
It's there.
Gobekli Tepe (means "belly hill" in Turkish) is indeed interesting in that it is 6000 years older than Stonehenge. To create this structure required hundreds of workers, all needing to be housed and fed. Makes me wonder if they had a good rib joint nearby.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Hagoth
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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:11 am

Rob4Hope wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:34 pm

Its there.

http://gobeklitepe.info/

There are other artifacts,...a massive one.
Maybe we're talking about different things, Rob. I guess I don't understand your animosity. The beauty of science is that it expands to fit the evidence. Of course people didn't know about things like this until they found them. Gobekli Tepe was a surprise, but one that was welcomed with excitement by archaeologists. It doesn't predate the Quaternary ice age, which began receding at least 20,000 years ago, but Gobekli Tepe reaches back pretty close to the Younger Dryas cold period. The fascinating thing about it is that no one expected to find a pre-agriculture society building stone temples but it's not like anybody's in denial or trying to create a coverup about it. I'm sorry if I don't see the point you're trying to make, but thanks for bringing it up, I think this stuff is fascinating and a lot of fun.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by 1smartdodog » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:26 am

So much in in the Church is wasted energy. Literal or not what does it really accomplish. Just wasted breath on something that has zero meaning in my life

I could go to church if we had some real discussions not made up reality.


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Rob4Hope
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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:55 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:11 am
Rob4Hope wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:34 pm

Its there.

http://gobeklitepe.info/

There are other artifacts,...a massive one.
Maybe we're talking about different things, Rob. I guess I don't understand your animosity. The beauty of science is that it expands to fit the evidence. Of course people didn't know about things like this until they found them. Gobekli Tepe was a surprise, but one that was welcomed with excitement by archaeologists. It doesn't predate the Quaternary ice age, which began receding at least 20,000 years ago, but Gobekli Tepe reaches back pretty close to the Younger Dryas cold period. The fascinating thing about it is that no one expected to find a pre-agriculture society building stone temples but it's not like anybody's in denial or trying to create a coverup about it. I'm sorry if I don't see the point you're trying to make, but thanks for bringing it up, I think this stuff is fascinating and a lot of fun.
If I came across with animosity, my apologies. I actually believe LOTS of science, but its the preconceived stuff that bugs me, especially when scientists show reticence to change their position. Egyptologists tend to irk me -- at least some of the older more dogmatic ones.

I wont even go into Kerry Muelstein. He is in a class all his own.

But what I am thinking about is the work by Robert Schoch and the Sphinx having water erosion. The best explanation I've seen on that indicates the Sphinx is older than the 4,000 BC (or something) that its generally dated to. In fact, it reaches back to a time when Egypt had water--ie, Dryas melt times or earlier.

My only point is this: it appears that intelligent life has existed on this planet for a LONG time. VERY long. But my understanding is also that many archeologists hold a view that civilized life has evolved slowly over time, and the start was Sumar. However, the Sphinx predates that, according to Schoch and others. So, why is there such a fuss in archeological circles?

I think there is growing evidence that advanced civilization has existed on this planet for a long time. It predates the Bible, especially if you take into account interpretations like BRM and JFM. And, it predates the Adam & Eve myth as well (IMHO).

But, i've read that archeologists tend to be stubborn with moving dates around and changing their position when new findings don't support their current idology or position.

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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:47 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:55 am
My only point is this: it appears that intelligent life has existed on this planet for a LONG time. VERY long. But my understanding is also that many archeologists hold a view that civilized life has evolved slowly over time, and the start was Sumar. However, the Sphinx predates that, according to Schoch and others. So, why is there such a fuss in archeological circles?
current idology or position.
I hope you're right, Rob. Wouldn't it be cool to find a whole age of Man that we never knew about?! There is no doubt that people have been pretty much as intelligent as we are (well, as you guys are - I misspelled intelligent. Twice) since the "Organizational Rubicon" around 35,000ish years ago, but the evidence for what we think of as civilization before Sumer is pretty weak. The way I see it, it's not so much that there's a fuss from the archaeological community as a fuss coming from the people on the fringes who are frustrated because the academics are not buying into their hypotheses. Gobekli Teppe is a great example. It's fascinating in so many ways, but I don't think there is much evidence to support the claims that it was built by people who we would recognize as having a material culture that was more advanced than Sumer, Even if the Sphynx turns out to be 5,000 years older than the pyramids it could have been built with the same technology used for the Easter Island heads: guys hammering bedrock with harder rocks.
Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:55 am
But, i've read that archeologists tend to be stubborn with moving dates around and changing their position when new findings don't support their current idology or position.
That's true, as it has been with every other discipline: scientific, political, religious, Marvel comics fans... I agree that at least the long-timer Egyptian national archaeologists have been really slow to recognize modern methods and technologies. I guess it's like evolutionists. We used to think human evolution proceeded along a straight stick and now we know it's a complex bush. There have been paleontologists who were very surprised by the dates of their finds to the point of being worried about the reaction they would get. But the science was correct and some people had to rethink a lot of things.

I'm not nearly as concerned about archaeologists dragging their feet as I am about them being too open-minded to fringe movements. One of my archaeology professors (a neverMo Mayanist) told me he would love nothing more than to find evidence of the Book of Mormon. It would make his career. The head archaeologist at the Utah Forest Service told me attends an lds-related "archaeology" study group in Utah County and is regularly accused of looking the other way concerning Book of Mormon evidence, and even of actively hiding it. Of course he's doing neither, he's just looking at the evidence that continues to suggest there were no Nephites or (to bring this back to the original topic) no Garden of Eden in Missouri.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:57 pm

Hey Hagoth,...this is a nice discussion, and I don't want to hijack. But there are a few things I'm not so sure the Egyptians could have done or the Romans:

1. The cutting and sizing of the megalithic boulders in pre-Columbian South America. These people had no horses and no metallurgy.
2. The Trilathon which would be VERY difficult, even with today's machinery, to lift and place.
3. The Kailasa temple in India. This one, in particular, baffles me. I've read some of the archeological explanations about this, and they are completely unbelievable (at least to me). Something else is going on, IMHO.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack, so sorry about that. I'll say this much, as for me, it WOULD be cool to know there were older civilizations that existed before Sumar. I lean that way, simply because it makes more sense to me. But, alas,...the jury is still out on that.

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Hagoth
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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:28 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:57 pm
1. The cutting and sizing of the megalithic boulders in pre-Columbian South America. These people had no horses and no metallurgy.
2. The Trilathon which would be VERY difficult, even with today's machinery, to lift and place.
3. The Kailasa temple in India. This one, in particular, baffles me. I've read some of the archeological explanations about this, and they are completely unbelievable (at least to me). Something else is going on, IMHO.
Yup, those are all really amazing. If someone else made them I hope we will see some direct evidence of that soon. In the meantime, when I look at them I marvel at how brilliant and innovative humans are and it makes me proud to be one.

Fun stuff Rob. I'm sorry for my portion of the hijack too. We should return now to our regularly scheduled program.

ETA: some fun facts about metal. The pre-columbian Mesoamericans never developed metallurgy but the South Americans did have copper smelting. The Tarascans of Mexico, directly to the west of the Aztec Empire, also did a bit of copper smelting, presumably adopted via coastal trading from South America. This was post-BoM time frame of course. The Incas actually made copper fasteners to hold those huge blocks together in earthquakes. We excavated some really beautifully made copper clamshell tweezers at a site in Peru where I was working, dated to about 1000 AD.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by moksha » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:11 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:28 pm
We excavated some really beautifully made copper clamshell tweezers at a site in Peru where I was working, dated to about 1000 AD.
If only those copper clamshell tweezers had "Property of Moroni" printed on the side, then Hagoth would have the left wing of the new BYU Archaeological Center named after him. President Nelson would declare it to be the most important archeological find since the world began over 6000 years ago. Hagoth would be granted a third anointing.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:18 am

moksha wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:11 pm
If only those copper clamshell tweezers had "Property of Moroni" printed on the side...
I wish. They turned out to be Gadianton tweezers.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: The Great Rib Debate

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:46 am

Continued topic derailment: metallurgy followup:

I just saw an ornamental Tarascan copper blade in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts that dates to 300 AD. That places it within the BoM timeframe, although pretty late.

So if the Nephites really meant copper when they talked about steel... Of course that would mean the Jaredites would also have needed to be smelting copper a thousand or so years before that and also calling it steel... The Tarascans didn't use metal for actual weapons, only for ornamentation trade. Also, the Tarascans lived outside of both of the limited geography hypotheses... So if we change or ignore the dates, the materials, and the locations...yeah, seems reasonable. They also built buildings, sat on things, ate food, spoke a language, and wore clothing. Man, the parallels are really piling up here.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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