Taking indefensible position?

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Taking indefensible position?

Post by Boozer » Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:50 pm

Hey All,
I am relieved to see that NOM is back up and running. This is a really cool site. Do you think it was North Korean hackers or DezNat? anyway, let's see if I can get some ideas out without making to much of a muck of it all.

My wife and I struggle with Intimacy (I had a porn addiction going into the marriage for 5 years and she has had an emotional affair recently). I tend to be less needy emotionally and she has abandonment issues. We are on a real roller coaster right now and really not sure if we're going to make it or not. I'm at a place of acceptance alla "We might not actually be the greatest fit and if you aren't happy with me I'll survive if we split so you can try and find what will make you happy". So because we have not been doing well lately I have finally broken through to being 100% honest with many of my feelings and thoughts in kind of an "I'm done trying to say what you want to hear" mostly surrounding our viewpoints around sex. Because of the betrayal trauma that she feels she has to know that I never think of another woman in order to feel safe. To me, this is controlling and then I am set up for failure because I have to prove a negative. No way to prove. So the hill where we have decided to have our battle is on fantasy. She insists that having a fantasy about any other woman on earth means I love her less, desire her less, she is not special, she is not cherished, and it can only hurt our connection. it is wrong in any way shape or form. And because she knows that I don't buy what the church is selling she goes to the Bible which I think I believe in Jesus, but I'm not sure to what extent right now. So "be ye therefore perfect" and "He that looketh on a woman and lusteth after her in his heart hath committed adultery" gets thrown at me. I feel that it is perfectly human to fantasize about other people and it is our commitment to not have sex with those other people that make us special to one another. I can see it being a bond between us sharing some fantasies together and acting them out sexually. I understand that that is uncomfortable for her and I have not asked her to do that but I am really arguing that having a sex fantasy about someone other than her is not me taking a negative position about her or not wanting to be with her.

Before I go on rambling too much about all this I think the thing I'm trying to get at is what do I say back to "Don't you believe in the bible anymore because it says to be perfect" and I'm sooooo done with the churches perfection obsession. I am at a place of acceptance of myself yes I like watching porn, yes it is very arousing sexually, a threesome with 2 girls would be a huge turn on and I would feel comfortable trying some things out. Please keep in mind I have not asked her to participate in something like that nor have I asked to so so without her. I have expressed my commitment to stay within our marriage but I am trying to allow a very new dialogue with someone who has the churches sex shame mentality in her core and initially has expressed 0 tolerance to budge, I have told a close personal friend that I really do think sex may be the deal breaker for both of us.

I think on a lot of it and this is the first time we have ever had an open and honest 2 way discussion about Sex. How could we? She was molly mormon and I was hidden porn addict when we got married. We NEVER had a healthy discussion about sex before we got married. And for that, I blame the churches culture. I'm sometimes angry about it but I can also accept that everyone in every culture gives people problems so such is life.

I would love to hear your alls thoughts. Am I out of line? How do I articulate an argument contrary to hers?

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Re: Taking indefensible position?

Post by dogbite » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:07 pm

I think its not about an argument contrary to hers.

Its not about convincing someone or trying to change them.

Its about laying out indivdiual positions without rancor but with respect. Not necessarily with agreement either. But seeing if there is common ground to continue to work from.

See a professional marriage therapist, together or alone if necessary.

Do not see the Bishop nor discuss it with him.

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Re: Taking indefensible position?

Post by Hopebeat » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:23 pm

I’ll just say this: in marriage (or really any relationship) it’s your job to meet your own needs. It’s not your job to meet her needs. It’s your job to meet your own needs. In a marriage, many of your needs are met by the same way. For example, food is a need. Say only one of you earns income, and buys the food. Your need is met because you are partnered with someone who buys food.

If you have different needs, it’s your own job to meet them. Even sexually. If things aren’t getting covered for one, the other, or both in the partnership, it’s your own personal job to meet those needs. I not saying to cross her boundaries, but blaming each other wouldn’t help either.

From the women’s side, I can understand because sex is a serious subject in the church. It’s really not that big of a deal. It’s natural. People have sex every day without all the Mormon baggage attached to it. And it’s supposed to be pleasurable. And fun. Once I realized this, fantasies were more ok for me. I still can’t talk about them much to my partner though. Sex is just one of those things that when you are brought up in the church you have a hard time with. They tell us everything is taboo— but in reality you can do whatever you want, and it’s supposed to be that way because it’s pleasurable, it makes it fun.

You don’t need to tell your wife these things, but understanding this can help you to move forward.

I actually listened to a podcast episode ran by a TBM life coach that actually addresses this exact issue in a very healthy way. I can pass the episode along to you to listen if you’d like. and maybe your wife will listen too, because the podcast is created by an LDS person.

Best wishes 🤗

PS no matter how hard she tries, she cannot control your thoughts. If she’s trying to control your thoughts in this way, what other ways is she going to? We teach people how to treat us. Just notice how you’re letting her treat you.

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Re: Taking indefensible position?

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:37 pm

One question you may want to look at is were you a real porn addict? A porn addiction according to the church and according to clinical psychologists are two completely different things. I would not trust the diagnosis of any Mormon therapist. I have had issues with trained therapists who were Mormon exaggerating things for me. I got completely different diagnosis from a non-Mormon and that was actually useful.

Real Porn addiction is when the compulsion to view porn interferes with your normal live. Someone who likew to look at porn a couple times a week and even uses it to get satisfaction is not addiction, it is normal. Especially if you are dealing with intimacy issues with your spouse.

The idea that just because you like to look at it makes you an addict is more Mormon baggage and yet again, it is wrong.

If you really were/are an addict, I hope you are getting professional help. If you think you are an addict simply because someone at church told you, go get a second opinion from a real, non-Mormon source. You likely are not.

A real (non LDS) therapist can really help you work things out with your spouse. Avoid LDS Family Services. It may be that both of you need a more realistic outlook on what it is to be human than the church will give you.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Re: Taking indefensible position?

Post by Boozer » Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:43 am

So for some background info. I think I was actually fell pretty in the middle of the clinical definition of a porn addict and the church's definition. So I am frustrated because the church (and my wife) label me an addict which is supposed to be a forever thing, like an alcoholic should never touch a sip of alcohol ever again. I really was a couple of times a week but it was interfering with our marriage. I had self-esteem and emotional connection problems. I frankly feel like I've dealt with that and could fall in a once a week or less and feel like I'm not damaging myself, yet I aim for 0 because its healthier for the marriage. I will admit tho that it was beginning to follow me to work which was when I really decided that I needed some help getting out of it all.

We saw a therapist that we really liked in salt lake who was a sex therapist. She was not on the churches payroll but she understood the church positions. While I like the work we did with her I feel it was mostly about me and my wife came away feeling like her views of sex and relationships were the only true and healthy ones. The Therapist we see now (we are in the midwest and it is not a church therapist) I feel is very good and helping us more to work it out ourselves. He gives less direction and helps us with understanding and communicating with each other.

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Re: Taking indefensible position?

Post by Coop » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:19 am

Here are three books that I highly recommend for LDS couples having intimacy issues. A lot cheaper than therapy. Plus they offer the advantage of having a hard copy while therapy lasts only as long as you can remember what the therapist says.

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Tiny-Clou ... 1537532049
https://www.amazon.com/They-Were-Not-As ... 1587830345
https://www.amazon.ca/Sex-Dawn-Stray-Mo ... 1491512407

All the best,

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Re: Taking indefensible position?

Post by EternityIsNow » Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:37 am

You are taking a lot of heat for normal human behavior. I suggest doing some research into sexual fantasy, emotional affairs, and porn use from a normal human sexuality point of view. For example, research shows that virtually all men and most women have sexual fantasies with people other than their partners. In fact, women are more likely than men to fantasize about someone else during sex. The church's unhealthy focus on sex has created a huge sexual priority in a marriage relationship that I think is very damaging. I will try to explain.

No two people have identical brains. We each have different levels of sex drive, different libido. We have different history, different memories. There is no one-size-fits-all rule that works for human relationships. Getting along is difficult. The church grossly oversimplifies human relationships, teaching that if you follow their philosophy everything will just work. That is simply not true.

We have to have positive partner relationships in many dimensions of our lives besides sexual for a marriage or partnership to work. I will try to put this in language related to the Topic.

Do you fantasize about going grocery shopping with another woman?

Do you fantasize about raising your children with another woman?

Do you fantasize about doing yardwork with another woman?

Do you fantasize about splitting expenses and dealing with financial planning with another woman?

Do you fantasize about going to family gatherings with another woman?

Do you fantasize about being at religious services with another woman?

Do you fantasize about going on vacation with another woman?

Do you fantasize about growing old with another woman?

Do you fantasize about watching movies, reading books, or talking about fun topics with another woman?

If you answered yes to all of these, then you may indeed have a serious problem. However if most of these were no, or not often, and the only area of your life where you seriously fantasize about another woman is sexuality, welcome to the human race.

Humans have a nearly intolerably high sex drive during the primes of our lives. That does go down a bit as we age. It is true that men tend to think about sex more often than women do. It is also true that men are more focused on physical intimacy and women more on emotional intimacy. Which leads to men being more interested in porn, and women more interested in erotic literature. These are normal human behaviors. Even in a totally monogamous happy, committed relationship, where we do not desire to live with another woman, or another man, the fantasy thoughts will still intrude on our minds from time to time.

There are many scientifically valid truths available today about sexuality, relationships, what makes marriage work. The church is not interested in the actual, scientific truth, they are interested in control, and superstition works better for control. You need some truth here. Believing things that are false is usually not a good idea. Just search the web with the terms "normal levels of sexual fantasy in relationships," or something like that, and you will see the studies that reveal scientific truths about the topic.

Unfortunately, the church has little interest in scientific truth, and a low comprehension of the complicated roll of sexuality in a relationship. Here's what I believe is the truth about imagined sex in relationships. For some reason, the human imagination is almost always polyamorous. Perhaps this has survival advantage, allowing people to adapt rapidly when they lose a partner. This is just the way things are.

You don't need to feel guilty for being a human being. Even the most beautiful people in the world who are married to the most beautiful partners in the world, often fail in their relationships. That should tell you something about human nature.

You are not broken, but you and your wife just need to get on the same page about sexuality. You need to put sexuality in its place in your relationship, and not let it rule everything. For a man to fantasize about sex with other women is normal. For a woman to seek emotional intimacy fantasies with another man is normal. To avoid discussing the topic is also normal. You are a normal couple, you just Need to find some common ground.

You don't have to have all the same interests, you don't have to like the same books or movies. You just have to set relationship boundaries that work for both of you, and stay within those boundaries. Whatever those boundaries need to be for your unique relationship.

The church's doctrines are a bit asexual and assume a completely controllable human imagination. Which is nearly impossible in real life. These sex rulesproduce a lot of guilt and income for the church of course . I guarantee you most general authorities have sexual fantasies about other women. As do their wives about other men. Because they also are human. Maybe they keep hammering on this issue, trying to convince men they are addicted to porn when they are just normally curious, because of the guilt church authorities feel themselves for their own wondering thoughts. That should not have to run your life.

To be clear, I am not suggesting that it is a good idea to focus on other women besides your wife sexually. You should do everything you can to be satisfied and happy with your wife. I am only making the point, rather elaborately, that it is normal to have thoughts that wander around sexually. Normal human behavior. Nothing you can do about it. Nothing anyone can do about it. It is how we are wired.

Here is an example of the type of information I think would be helpful in this discussion you're having with your wife. Some evidence. How human sexuality works. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... vers%3Famp

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Re: Taking indefensible position?

Post by Linked » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:25 am

I don't have a ton to suggest, as my communication with my spouse about sex is not great. I'm rooting for you though!
Boozer wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:50 pm
I feel that it is perfectly human to fantasize about other people and it is our commitment to not have sex with those other people that make us special to one another. I can see it being a bond between us sharing some fantasies together and acting them out sexually.
Bold/italics added

The way you stated this was interesting. I think the things that make us special to each other are what we do for/with each other more than what we avoid for each other. It might be restated as "our love of sex with each other is one of the things that makes our relationship special" as an ideal. That is more focused on your connection. The mormon baggage makes it difficult to get there though.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Taking indefensible position?

Post by A New Name » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:41 pm

Here is a Blog post I wrote a few weeks ago on the verse "be ye therefore perfect"

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