Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

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Arcturus
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Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by Arcturus » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:50 am

Wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction to (any) published research on this...

I've heard that there's a possibility of revisionist history as to the "burned over district"-episode of US history being the catalyst for Joseph Jr.'s soul searching and quest for truth. Anyone know anything about this? Supposedly the time in which Joseph purportedly went about his search for truth and the great revivals going on in his locale didn't actually happen in the reported time frame according to the church's formal/canonized telling of the story?

Thanks NOMers!
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
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græy
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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by græy » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:26 am

Just a few weeks ago I found and read this Dialogue article from 1969 on this topic. I was having a hard time finding much of anything printed with more recent information, but I'm pretty sure that Dan Vogel has some videos/posts on the topic.

The question of the Palmyra Revival: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... N01_61.pdf
The full Dialogue Issue: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... V04N01.pdf

edit to add: I can't seem to find anything on this from Vogel, so I may be remembering something else. Either way, I don't think the research in this area has changed much as the documentation and evidence presented in this article is quite thorough and compelling. The revival we so often refer to as the catalyst for JS's first vision didn't actually occur until 1823 or 1824, which makes our current version of events... problematic.
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Mormorrisey
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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:46 am

This is one of the few criticisms of Joseph that never really washed with me, the question of WAS there actually a religious revival in Palmyra in 1820. As someone who up until a few years ago made a living off of 19th century North American history, particularly religious history, it really doesn't matter if there was a revival IN Palmyra during the dates described. Simply because the dates of the Second Great Awakening are all about ebb and flow - for example, historians now say the Second Great Awakening occurred roughly from 1800-1812, took a break until 1820, then roared again until 1837. That's a pretty large timeline. So a religious revival could have come in 1819, or 1821 or 1822. Or they could have traveled to nearby Manchester to see one of these camp meetings, or even all the way to Rochester if they were motivated enough to go to a revival. Entertainment was hard to come by, and they easily could have traveled to see a revival "performance." Or, they could have called ANY religious meeting in Palmyra a "revival" due to the phrase's popularity.

For some great published history on this, the best work on this period in New York comes from Paul Johnson, who wrote two great books on this, The Shopkeeper's Millennium which was about the revivals in nearby Rochester during this period, and the very underrated The Kingdom of Matthais. I tend to buy his view, that even if a revival did not come to your town proper, you would hear about it in the local watering holes, newspapers and the like. Another great book is Nathan Hatch's The Democratization of American Christianity which has a large section on how the revival movement influenced Mormonism.

To me at least, of all the things Joseph made up or plagiarized, the fact that there wasn't an ACTUAL revival in Palmyra during the time frame he describes is definitely not a smoking gun. There WERE revivals all around him, and he would have been influenced by them. No question in my mind.
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"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by el-asherah » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:51 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:46 am
To me at least, of all the things Joseph made up or plagiarized, the fact that there wasn't an ACTUAL revival in Palmyra during the time frame he describes is definitely not a smoking gun. There WERE revivals all around him, and he would have been influenced by them. No question in my mind.
Joseph Smith doesn't just talk about any generic revivals, he specifically describes Pastor Lane has conducting one of the sermons. This is the sermon where we get the James 1:5 reference in the some of the accounts. The big smoking gun is that Pastor Lane was not in the area in 1820. However, there is historical evidence that he was in the area preaching in 1823. In Oliver Cowdery's 1834 history of the church, Oliver testifies of the Pastor Lane event in 1823. As Oliver describes it - the Pastor Lane sermon is one of the events that got the ball rolling resulting in the ........... Gold Plate Vision with Nephi/Moroni. Where before the Gold Plate Vision, Joseph did not even know if God existed. Oliver in 1834 is entirely unaware of the First Vision in the Grove in 1820. From Oliver's point of view the Gold Plate Vision was the First Vision and the historical record wrt Pastor Lane in 1823 validates Oliver's version of the history.
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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by Coop » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:01 pm

Dan Vogel discussed his research on this issue in a recent interview with Rick Bennett. Here is a link to the first of their discussions.

https://gospeltangents.com/2019/06/firs ... conflicts/

All the best,
Bob

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:57 pm

el-asherah wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:51 pm
Mormorrisey wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:46 am
To me at least, of all the things Joseph made up or plagiarized, the fact that there wasn't an ACTUAL revival in Palmyra during the time frame he describes is definitely not a smoking gun. There WERE revivals all around him, and he would have been influenced by them. No question in my mind.
Joseph Smith doesn't just talk about any generic revivals, he specifically describes Pastor Lane has conducting one of the sermons. This is the sermon where we get the James 1:5 reference in the some of the accounts. The big smoking gun is that Pastor Lane was not in the area in 1820. However, there is historical evidence that he was in the area preaching in 1823. In Oliver Cowdery's 1834 history of the church, Oliver testifies of the Pastor Lane event in 1823.
I was intrigued by this, and I couldn't remember Joseph mentioning Lane by name in any of his first vision accounts or in his history. And so a little digging, it was actually mentioned in William Smith's writings in the 1880s, and as you mention here, by Oliver in 1834. Never by Joseph himself. Now, this account summarizing it is by the church, so take it with a grain of salt:

https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org ... s?lang=eng

But it does mention that Lane was at the Genessee Conference in 1819, which was a short (well, relatively short) distance from the Smith farm. Now, that doesn't mean that Lane even preached at the conference, so it's a weak reference to my mind by the apologists, but it is possible that he heard Lane there. I'm still not convinced this episode is the smoking gun, say, that the Book of Abraham is.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

el-asherah
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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by el-asherah » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:34 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:57 pm

I was intrigued by this, and I couldn't remember Joseph mentioning Lane by name in any of his first vision accounts or in his history. And so a little digging, it was actually mentioned in William Smith's writings in the 1880s, and as you mention here, by Oliver in 1834. Never by Joseph himself. Now, this account summarizing it is by the church, so take it with a grain of salt:

https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org ... s?lang=eng

But it does mention that Lane was at the Genessee Conference in 1819, which was a short (well, relatively short) distance from the Smith farm. Now, that doesn't mean that Lane even preached at the conference, so it's a weak reference to my mind by the apologists, but it is possible that he heard Lane there. I'm still not convinced this episode is the smoking gun, say, that the Book of Abraham is.
Now this is very intriguing!! I went to the church's apologetic web site you referenced

https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org ... s?lang=eng
Reverend George Lane did not preach in the circuits nearest the Smith farm, but he did attend the Genesee Conference in July 1819, which brought 110 Methodist ministers and their bishop within 15 miles of the Smith home. Several special worship services were included as part of the conference, and for a year afterward there was an increase in Methodist activities and fervor throughout the region.
While Joseph Smith never mentioned George Lane in his histories, others of Joseph’s associates named Reverend Lane as being influential in Joseph’s search. Oliver Cowdery wrote, “One Mr. Lane, a presiding Elder of the Methodist church, visited Palmyra, and vicinity. . . . Mr. Lane’s manner of communication was peculiarly calculated to awaken the intellect of the hearer, and arouse the sinner to look about him for safety—much good instruction was always drawn from his discourses on the scriptures, and in common with others, [Joseph’s] mind became awakened.”10Many years later, Joseph’s brother William remembered Joseph attending a meeting where George Lane addressed the question “What church shall I join?” Using James 1:5 as a text, Reverend Lane urged his listeners “to ask God.”11 If William’s recollection is correct, Lane’s sermon may have influenced Joseph as he sought direction.
Also from the church's own history department
https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org ... s?lang=eng
For a time, Joseph Smith sought relief among the Methodists. In July 1819, more than one hundred ministers gathered for a conference of the Methodist Episcopal Church, convened in Vienna (now Phelps), New York, a half-day’s walk from the Smith family farm.4 The area pulsed with “unusual excitement on the subject of religion.”5 The preaching of one of the ministers, George Lane, may have especially influenced Joseph. William Smith, Joseph’s younger brother, recalled that Lane “preached a sermon on ‘What church shall I join?’ And the burden of [Lane’s] discourse was to ask God, using as a text, ‘If any man lack wisdom let him ask of God who giveth to all men liberally.’”6 
The Genesse Conference was held in Phelps NY in 1819 and is indeed about 15 miles from Palmyra.

This new narrative does look like a strong case for the church …... until …... you follow the ….. footnotes. Then you realize the level of deception and conflation conducted by the church's history department and the apologists. The church needs to stop adding footnotes and shooting themselves in the foot.

There are 2 events the church is purposely conflating together, the 1819 event which Pastor Lane did attend (but appears to have never spoken at) in Phelps NY about 15 miles from Palymra, and the later Sept 1824 Pastor Lane sermon event in Palmyra. By omitting key information such as time and place in the new narrative listed above (lying by omission), the church makes it appear that there was one event in 1819 where Joseph got the idea to seek the answer from God (James 1:5) from Pastor Lane in a revival

Following the footnotes, footnote 11 and 6 refer to Oliver and William Smiths testimony, both men place the Pastor Lane sermon in Palmyra in 1824. To simplify the discussion, I'm using the following Dialogue article by Rev. Wesley P. Walters and chaired by Richard Bushman, this article is a wealth of information and is too long to quote here
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... N01_61.pdf

A few key highlights from the paper, starting on the bottom of page 61.
  • Cowdery's history claims Pastor Lane preached in Palmyra in 1823/1824 when JS was 17. Page 62.
  • William Smith ties James 1:5 to Pastor Lane and “which church should I join”, the dating in William's account places the sermon in ~1823/1824 in Palmyra, JS was 17-18, based on Alvin's death the year is 1824, Page 63.
  • Lucy Smith's story also placed Pastor Lane sermon after Alvin's death in 1824.
  • Pastor Lane was in Phelps in 1819 to receive his appointment in the Susquehanna District in central Pennsylvania.
  • There is NO record of Pastor Lane speaking in 1819 at the Genesse Conference, just received an appointment. Page 63. Nor is there any record of any of the Smith family going to this event. The church is very vague and misleading saying "The preaching of one of the ministers, George Lane, may have especially influenced Joseph"
  • Later Pastor Lane did receive an appointment to serve as Presiding Elder of the Ontario District in which Palmyra is located in July 1824. Page 63.
  • In the new narrative from the church “Reverend George Lane did not preach in the circuits nearest the Smith farm”, which directly contradicts Pastor Lanes own records show that he did indeed preach in Palmyra in Sept 1824. William Smiths, and Lucy Smiths testimony claim they were there. Page 64
To me this is a slam dunk case. Especially since researching my response to this question, I can see how with total deception the church is white washing the history by conflating two different Pastor Lane events to be the same event, and flushing the real 1824 Pastor Lane sermon event down the memory hole

Totally agreed that the BoA is more of a smoking gun. Slam dunk and throw away the key!! Especially the science part!!
I say these things in the name of Joshua and Awmen

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jfro18
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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by jfro18 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:57 am

Coop wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:01 pm
Dan Vogel discussed his research on this issue in a recent interview with Rick Bennett. Here is a link to the first of their discussions.

https://gospeltangents.com/2019/06/firs ... conflicts/

All the best,
Bob
Was going to post this - it's a short listen and goes through all of this very carefully.

In short, the years wouldn't matter so much if everything else lined up, but the fact that they don't makes you wonder why Joseph is going through such great lengths to weave a story that couldn't have possibly happened as stated.

And if he's willing to make that up... what else is he willing to distort, exaggerate, or make up?

Arcturus
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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by Arcturus » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:31 am

jfro18 wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:57 am
Coop wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:01 pm
Dan Vogel discussed his research on this issue in a recent interview with Rick Bennett. Here is a link to the first of their discussions.

https://gospeltangents.com/2019/06/firs ... conflicts/

All the best,
Bob
Was going to post this - it's a short listen and goes through all of this very carefully.

In short, the years wouldn't matter so much if everything else lined up, but the fact that they don't makes you wonder why Joseph is going through such great lengths to weave a story that couldn't have possibly happened as stated.

And if he's willing to make that up... what else is he willing to distort, exaggerate, or make up?
How much of the narrative in the canonized pearl of great price JSH is directly from Joseph, rather than later historians under the direction of Brigham? Is his quest for truth spurred by the burned over district contained in the letter book accounts of the different first vision accounts?

What I’m asking jfro is maybe Joseph didn’t make up that part of the history (the pastor Lane stuff)? Maybe it’s Brigham’s fault-we know he administrated all the “spinning” of church history once he was in charge...
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:42 pm

el-asherah wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:34 pm
This new narrative does look like a strong case for the church …... until …... you follow the ….. footnotes. Then you realize the level of deception and conflation conducted by the church's history department and the apologists. The church needs to stop adding footnotes and shooting themselves in the foot.
And not for the first time, either, have they greased the footnotes for a larger than life claim. I'd love to say only the church does this, but I've read some doozy footnotes in academic histories that pull the same stunt. Unfortunately church historians seem to have mastered this particular skill. I appreciate the well-researched responses, el-asherah.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Random
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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by Random » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:02 pm

Arcturus wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:50 am
Wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction to (any) published research on this...

I've heard that there's a possibility of revisionist history as to the "burned over district"-episode of US history being the catalyst for Joseph Jr.'s soul searching and quest for truth. Anyone know anything about this? Supposedly the time in which Joseph purportedly went about his search for truth and the great revivals going on in his locale didn't actually happen in the reported time frame according to the church's formal/canonized telling of the story?

Thanks NOMers!
Daymon Smith wrote a set of books on LDS church history. I found the book that talked about the beginnings quite interesting because I learned things I had never known (things I had been taught were uniquely Mormon, but turned out to be common beliefs at the time).

Volume 1

Volume Two A

Volume Two B is called Follies Epic and Novel and is referring to the "saints' when they went west to present-day Utah.

There are other volumes, but I found these most interesting.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:57 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:42 pm
And not for the first time, either, have they greased the footnotes for a larger than life claim.
My personal favorites are:

Book of Mormon translation essay, footnote 22:
The text of the essay says, "Although commentators differ on the nature of the instrument, several ancient sources state that the instrument involved stones that lit up or were divinely illumined.22

This endnote cites a BYU masters thesis that finds examples of glowing stones in mythology and medieval tales, rather than any kind of actual supporting “ancient sources.” It mentions magic stones in the context of dwarves, pirates and witches. It also reminds us that, “Before assuming this role [as a prophet], Smith had used divining rods and then seer stones to find underground water, buried treasure, lost items, and stray livestock”

Nauvoo polygamy essay, footnote 45:
The text says, "Years later in Utah, participants in Nauvoo plural marriage discussed their motives for entering into the practice. God declared in the Book of Mormon that monogamy was the standard; at times, however, He commanded plural marriage so His people could “raise up seed unto [Him].”44 Plural marriage did result in an increased number of children born to believing parents.45"

Wow. Footnote 45 contains no such information, but merely reroutes us to another footnote in the Utah polygamy essay which informs us that: “Studies have shown that monogamous women bore more children per wife than did polygamous wives except the first.” It is pretty hard to read that as anything but intentional intellectual dishonesty. I think the "born to believing parents" part is the loophole they are using here to say that it allowed certain families (i.e. the most powerful priesthood leaders) to have more children faster.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Hagoth
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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:41 am

Random wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:02 pm
Daymon Smith wrote a set of books on LDS church history. I found the book that talked about the beginnings quite interesting because I learned things I had never known (things I had been taught were uniquely Mormon, but turned out to be common beliefs at the time).

Volume 1

Volume Two A

Volume Two B is called Follies Epic and Novel and is referring to the "saints' when they went west to present-day Utah.
These sound fascinating. I'm surprised we don't hear more about them. I haven't heard Daymon Smith interviewed since his early Mormon Stories interview about the Book of Mammon. Do you know if he has appeared on any podcasts talking about the concepts in these books?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Random
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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by Random » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:55 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:41 am
Do you know if he has appeared on any podcasts talking about the concepts in these books?
I don't know of any.




Lately, he has been writing channeled books that he says are true histories, but I don't think that ruins his first book, nor the set of books about the cultural history of the book of Mormon.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

Arcturus
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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by Arcturus » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:28 am

Random wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:02 pm

Daymon Smith wrote a set of books on LDS church history. I found the book that talked about the beginnings quite interesting because I learned things I had never known (things I had been taught were uniquely Mormon, but turned out to be common beliefs at the time).

Volume 1

Volume Two A

Volume Two B is called Follies Epic and Novel and is referring to the "saints' when they went west to present-day Utah.

There are other volumes, but I found these most interesting.
Thank you Random! I'll look into these.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:56 am

Arcturus wrote:
Random wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:02 pm

Daymon Smith wrote a set of books on LDS church history. I found the book that talked about the beginnings quite interesting because I learned things I had never known (things I had been taught were uniquely Mormon, but turned out to be common beliefs at the time).

Volume 1

Volume Two A

Volume Two B is called Follies Epic and Novel and is referring to the "saints' when they went west to present-day Utah.

There are other volumes, but I found these most interesting.
Thank you Random! I'll look into these.
Daymon's books are great. Treasure trove of good stuff.

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Re: Burned over district & Joseph's search for truth

Post by Emower » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:50 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:42 pm
el-asherah wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:34 pm
This new narrative does look like a strong case for the church …... until …... you follow the ….. footnotes. Then you realize the level of deception and conflation conducted by the church's history department and the apologists. The church needs to stop adding footnotes and shooting themselves in the foot.
And not for the first time, either, have they greased the footnotes for a larger than life claim. I'd love to say only the church does this, but I've read some doozy footnotes in academic histories that pull the same stunt. Unfortunately church historians seem to have mastered this particular skill. I appreciate the well-researched responses, el-asherah.
As do I. I am going to follow those footnotes later, with a bag of popcorn in hand...

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