Carthage Conspiracy Theory

[felixfabulous]

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but I recently discovered that a family member has subscribed to the idea that Joseph was a prophet, but that Brigham and subsequent leaders were not. I've noticed that a lot of people who have this school of thought go back to a lot of the RLDS ideas that condemned Brigham Young (putting polygamy on him, etc.).

One that I had not heard before was the idea that the murders of Joseph and Hyrum were an inside job. My family member sent me this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTuu6Y6C0o4 which comes from an RLDS (late 80s/early 90s?) ballistics expert who is talking about the reasons why he thinks it was an inside job. I'm not sure I buy his theory, but it does make sense and he does point out some of the details of the Carthage story that are odd. Why would Hyrum declare he was a dead man while he was being ripped apart by musket balls? Why would men lug huge muskets up a narrow stairs and trying to aim them through a cracked door? Muskets were really long at the time and gave off a huge spark when they fired, would have been very awkward and dangerous to fire in a confined space at an angle. Lastly, the detail about Joseph standing in the window, appealing to the Masons and jumping out always seemed odd to me. Why would you jump out a window into a mob with bayonets?

If you don't want to watch the long video, the mob initially was going to do it, but were alarmed and scared off when Joseph met them in the stairwell armed. John Taylor and Willard Richards turned their guns on Joseph and Hyrum, John Taylor's injuries were sustained trading fire with Hyrum (the watch hole matches the caliber Hyrum had, not a musket ball). Willard shot Joseph and then threw his body out the window to make sure he was dead.

Curious if anyone else has looked into this and if it's total bunk.

[no1saint]

The Smiths were a liability to the survival of the Church. A martyr to unite the people worked so much better.

[Rob4Hope]

I've read statements that seem to indicate Samuel Smith's death was most likely an inside job. And we also know from history that Brigham's death (though unrelated to this thread) was probably an inside job as well.

If the gruesome reports I've read about Dr. Bennett working an abortion clinic are true, then these guys were capable of just about anything. Joseph was out bleeding goat blood and casting spells, right? He sent Porter Rockwell and others after Govenor Boggs...right? The Danites were out doing bad things, and Mormon's drew first blood in Missouri....right?

Who knows what hidden history lurks out there, regardless of possible inside collusion on the killings....

[Corsair]

I don't know if this is related, but LDS Living has this article which wants to cast Joseph as the focal point and target of a grand conspiracy:

6 Things You Didn't Know About the Plot to Murder Joseph Smith

I know nothing about the Carthage lynching to indicate that it was an inside job. But plenty of elements outside the church were apparently not fond of Joseph either. I really don't like conspiracy theories, but it looks like almost nobody liked Joseph at the end.

[Palerider]

Muskets are somewhat unwieldy but not so much that they wouldn't have been used in this case. The mob presumably wasn't aware that Joseph was armed with his pepper box pistol so the need for short arms wouldn't have been seen as necessary right away.

I also would have a problem trusting the ballistics as far as getting a match between John Taylor's watch, etc. The church is worse than the Catholic Church when it comes to making claims about some of their sacred objects.

[alas]

There were rumors that Joseph was going to disavow polygamy as a mistake and order everyone to give up all extra wives. That would not have been something that Brigham wanted, and Brigham DID want power, so I could believe that Brigham would be part of such a plot.

But we need better evidence than just that Brigham was a lecherous dictator when he was in Utah.

But I have always seen his over the top loyalty to Joseph after Joseph’s death as compensating for something. He sure had no loyalty to Joesph’s wife.

[jfro18]

There were rumors that Joseph was going to disavow polygamy as a mistake and order everyone to give up all extra wives. That would not have been something that Brigham wanted, and Brigham DID want power, so I could believe that Brigham would be part of such a plot.

But we need better evidence than just that Brigham was a lecherous dictator when he was in Utah.

But I have always seen his over the top loyalty to Joseph after Joseph’s death as compensating for something. He sure had no loyalty to Joesph’s wife.

This is where I'd fall in...

I think conspiracy theories can be fun, but if there's not much more than some random rumors it's not worth stating publicly.

Brigham Young was an awful, terrible person who was absolutely consumed by the power and profited from it immeasurably. I don't think he was behind Joseph's death though - I think he was just an opportunist who knew he could do what Joseph was doing but much more effectively.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Why muskets? It is what the militia would have been commonly armed with. Shooting it or a flintlock pistol in a stairwell would make no difference in the so called spark danger. The theory that Hyrum wouldn't have yelled out while being hit by musket fire is an equally ludicrous argument. Humans are hard to kill and can do all sorts of things before the lights go out for good. The RLDS love their special conspiracies. It took President Steve Veasey in an interview speaking for the flock to finally admit the historical evidence that Joseph was the source of polygamy, but there are many in this and other non-Utah branches that cling to the evil Brigham notion to clear Smith's name.

[deacon blues]

Wow. There IS always something new in Church history. I wish there was a Readers Digest version. 100 minutes on this is a little too much for me. I'm surprised there are 5,000 views.

[felixfabulous]

It is long, I just listened to the audio while I was doing stuff around the house. He's not the best presenter and it's dated. But, he does make an interesting argument.

[Palerider]

The theory that Hyrum wouldn't have yelled out while being hit by musket fire is an equally ludicrous argument. Humans are hard to kill and can do all sorts of things before the lights go out for good.

Witnesses to a mortal grizzly bear attack in Glacier National Park back in the 1960's, said that the last thing they heard the young woman scream as the bear carried her off was, "I'm dead, I'm dead!!!"

It could be that people have a precognitive perception of what is happening to them.

[Not Buying It]

There is plenty enough really messed up stuff in Church history - we don’t need sensationally speculative crap like this. Well documented history gives us all the batcrap crazy we need in Church history, speculation like this just muddies the waters.

[jfro18]

There is plenty enough really messed up stuff in Church history - we don’t need sensationally speculative crap like this. Well documented history gives us all the batcrap crazy we need in Church history, speculation like this just muddies the waters.

This is always a good rule of thumb -- there's no reason to expand criticism to areas we don't have evidence because apologists turn around and only focus on that in rebuttals. In my opinion, that extends to:

-The Spaulding authorship theory
-Joseph having sex with 14 year olds
-Emma being in on some massive conspiracy
-The Greek Psalter incident
-Joseph using maps for Book of Mormon city names where dating the maps is difficult
etc, etc

It doesn't mean those things aren't interesting to talk about - just that those are areas where it has to turn into more of a conspiracy because we don't have solid evidence to work from. And since everything else that we do have evidence for is damning on its own, no need to give apologists an out with this kind of stuff.

[felixfabulous]

I think those are fair rebuttals.

[Not Buying It]

Not to threadjack, but let me ask this though - while I doubt very much that Brigham had anything to do with Joseph's murder, I myself have promoted the idea over the years that Brigham made a major power grab in the leadership vacuum caused by Joseph's assassination. And no question, he was the power-grabby type. BUT - is there not a precedent in scripture for apostles assuming control of the Church upon the death of Christ? I mean, if we pretend that the Church is the same one from the New Testament that has been restored, doesn't it make sense that the apostles would lead the Church after Joseph died, with the head apostle in charge?

[Rob4Hope]

Brigham may not have been involved in Joseph's death, but what about Samuel? I've read some interesting things about that....