Another nail in the coffin

[Rob4Hope]

Well, we've had several "sex" topics course through this site, and yet another one is being launched.

One of the things others have said crashed their shelves was that the gospel "didn't work". They followed the teachings, doing the best they could, and overall, things didn't happen as they were supposed to. Often the idea was presented of: "Oh, you just didn't have enough faith". Or: "It just wasn't God's will".

Various GAs have tiptoed around this topic, trying to make it softer or more paletable. I'm thinking "All These Things Shall Give The Experience"...a book by NAM. Also, the "do you have faith NOT to be healed"...a talk from Bednar. In my opinion, these are all excuses cooked up as an apologetic way to justify unmet expectation, all the while keeping the brethren in authority.

One of the area that has caused so much damage is the LDS position on sexuality in marriage, as well as the big bad nasty masterbation topic. I've read several things about the LDS position, but every now and then I see something I didn't know about. In a way playing catchup with all the discussion that has been out there. Wendy Watson gave a talk on this which I wasn't aware of, and her answer to happy marital bliss is scripture study?

OH MY GAWD!...You are joking right!

She wasn't. Un freaking believable!

I've recently listened to a discussion by Gina Calvin, Julie de Azevedo-Hanks and Netasha Helfer-Parker. Its here:

https://www.athoughtfulfaith.org/the-tr ... edo-hanks/

I couldn't agree more with what these ladies said. The whole Wendy Watson talk, frankly, pisses me off. LDS leadership get out there and spread their shame all over the place; then they carefully and cunningly step away, refuse to take responsibility for the damage they cause, and hide behind their masks of piety.

I also have read (for the first time) the article published by Netasha here:

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/the-mo ... sgression/

Its another nail in the coffin for me regarding any association I have with the church. I'm already out and their ain't a lot of room for more nails,...but this time there is.

It makes me angry when arrogant egotistical men hide behind a cloak of religious piety and special status, thinking they have it all in with Jesus Christ and Eleohim, just to meddle, take no responsibility, and create damage in their wake.

[RubinHighlander]

It makes me angry when arrogant egotistical men hide behind a cloak of religious piety and special status, thinking they have it all in with Jesus Christ and Eleohim, just to meddle, take no responsibility, and create damage in their wake.

It's the most dishonest way to make a living, a bunch of rich old white men making sincere folks believe they are the chosen ones taking to God, bilking little old single ladies into paying tithing on their pensions. Young struggling couples, thinking that sacrificing their time and money is more important that paying off their student loans. While only a very small % of those difficult donations ever go to help the world, but instead is invested in billions of dollars of real estate and the stock market.

It's as Fd up as it gets! At least those cults that made their members drink koolaid released their believers from a potential lifetime of servitude! Think about TSCC mantra: Endure To The End! They want every penny, every ounce of everything they can get from you, no early out from that slavery!

[Red Ryder]

I traditionally haven’t been a fan of Wendy and her GOMI (God Ordained Marital Intimacy) ideology.

But what if she IS right?

Close your eyes and imagine the beautiful sexual relations among celestial married husband and wife. Foreplay begins on Sunday morning when the alarm clock of Bishop JT Pickens goes off at 4:30 in the morning. He rolls over to his right and turns the alarm off, then rolls over to his left to kiss Sister Pickens on the forehead gently so not to wake her. He gets out of bed and stretches his aging back, pulling, tugging, and straightening out his garments from the night spent crept between his cheeks as he walks towards the bathroom. As he passes the mirror he chuckles at his self image cloaked in the garments of righteousness. He jumps into the shower and hurries to dress in his Sunday suit quickly so as not to be late for 3rd Sunday Ward Counsel.

Six hours later as he sits quietly on the stand, he notices his wife and family have yet to arrive. On schedule he sees his beautiful celestial bride walk in through the back door of the cultural hall followed by his seven wonderful kids age 14 down to 2. He smiles unaware of the difficulty just experienced by his wife to wake everyone up, get them dressed and fed, and on time to church.

The foreplay continues as Bishop Perkins conducts sacrament meeting and weeps while sharing his testimony of the things he’s learned this past week while studying the Come Follow Me manual during Home Church study hour. Sister Perkins begins to feel a warm tingling feeling between her legs as Bishop testifies. The warmth increases creating a joyful blissful moment before she realizes her two year old son’s diaper is leaking and he’s peed all over her lap socking her long striped maxi dress.

After church Sister Perkins, exhausted from the typical Sunday activities lies down to take a nap. During her nap the seven children destroy the house. Bishop Perkins comes home hungry after spending 8 hours at church only to find his house a mess, no food on the table, and his wife asleep. Frustrated he makes himself a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and heads to his room to read his scriptures. Later that night, feeling frisky he rolls over and begins to rub Sister Perkins back. She tells him not tonight honey.

Monday night comes around and FHE goes well enough that Bishop and Sister Perkins are feeling a joyful bond. They decide to take the dog for a walk around the neighborhood before falling asleep.

Wednesday night comes around and Bishop is tied up in more church meetings. After getting home he shares his testimony of visiting with the ward members and how fulfilling it is to see them grow spiritually. Sister Perkins is heart warmed by the shared emotional spiritual intimacy.

She leans over and whispers in the good old Bishop’s ear, “do you know what time it is?” Then with a grin on her face she leans over to the nightstand and seductively pulls open the top drawer... and pulls out her warn blue copy of the Book of Mormon. It’s scripture time she exclaims! They slog through Alma 32 and share their testimonies before stripping out of their clothes, and kneeling down together in their garments bedside to say their prayers. Their six year old interrupts them and spends half the night sleeping between them in their bed.

Friday comes around and the couple have never felt closer during the week as they attend their 12 year old daughter’s choir concert at the junior high. They walk hand in hand to the car after and watch as the sun sets over and behind the gymnasium roof.

Saturday, Bishop gets up and does the yard work, soaking his double layered t-shirt from the sweat of his brow. He knows his week long efforts have had to impress Sister Perkins and tonight is the night!

He was right! As they got in bed they read 3 extra chapters of scriptures, then told her to say the prayer as they knelt down. She expressed the most heartfelt sincere prayer.

Dear Heavenly Father,

Thank you for this day. Thank you for the beautiful family we share and our love for thy gospel. Please bless us as we are about to partake of each other’s bodily sacraments, to express our deep love and desire for each other within the bounds of the sacred teachings of the prophets interpretations of the law of chastity! Bless us that we may have marital relations filled with clean thoughts, light motion, and spiritual confirmation that we are morally clean vessels of the Lord’s spirit. We ask thee to have the spirit, even the Holy Ghost present during our marital relations. We ask that thou will bless the “refreshments” and we humbly ask for these things in the name of Jesus Christ Amen.

They then proceed to have missionary position sex, and three minutes later Bishop and Sister Perkins are quickly falling asleep on separate sides of the bed. Goodnight. Did you set your alarm, she whispers? You don’t want to be late for Ward Counsel tomorrow.

Sister Watson and the Perkins know that God Ordained Marital Intimacy is a true principle of the Lord! They testify of its truth. They have felt the blessings of the Lord in their marriage and have felt the hand of God strengthen their lives and family. This it is true!

[Rob4Hope]

I traditionally haven’t been a fan of Wendy and her GOMI (God Ordained Marital Intimacy) ideology.

But what if she IS right?

Close your eyes and imagine the beautiful sexual relations among celestial married husband and wife. Foreplay begins on Sunday morning when the alarm clock of Bishop JT Pickens goes off at 4:30 in the morning. He rolls over to his right and turns the alarm off, then rolls over to his left to kiss Sister Pickens on the forehead gently so not to wake her. He gets out of bed and stretches his aging back, pulling, tugging, and straightening out his garments from the night spent crept between his cheeks as he walks towards the bathroom. As he passes the mirror he chuckles at his self image cloaked in the garments of righteousness. He jumps into the shower and hurries to dress in his Sunday suit quickly so as not to be late for 3rd Sunday Ward Counsel.

Six hours later as he sits quietly on the stand, he notices his wife and family have yet to arrive. On schedule he sees his beautiful celestial bride walk in through the back door of the cultural hall followed by his seven wonderful kids age 14 down to 2. He smiles unaware of the difficulty just experienced by his wife to wake everyone up, get them dressed and fed, and on time to church.

The foreplay continues as Bishop Perkins conducts sacrament meeting and weeps while sharing his testimony of the things he’s learned this past week while studying the Come Follow Me manual during Home Church study hour. Sister Perkins begins to feel a warm tingling feeling between her legs as Bishop testifies. The warmth increases creating a joyful blissful moment before she realizes her two year old son’s diaper is leaking and he’s peed all over her lap socking her long striped maxi dress.

After church Sister Perkins, exhausted from the typical Sunday activities lies down to take a nap. During her nap the seven children destroy the house. Bishop Perkins comes home hungry after spending 8 hours at church only to find his house a mess, no food on the table, and his wife asleep. Frustrated he makes himself a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and heads to his room to read his scriptures. Later that night, feeling frisky he rolls over and begins to rub Sister Perkins back. She tells him not tonight honey.

Monday night comes around and FHE goes well enough that Bishop and Sister Perkins are feeling a joyful bond. They decide to take the dog for a walk around the neighborhood before falling asleep.

Wednesday night comes around and Bishop is tied up in more church meetings. After getting home he shares his testimony of visiting with the ward members and how fulfilling it is to see them grow spiritually. Sister Perkins is heart warmed by the shared emotional spiritual intimacy.

She leans over and whispers in the good old Bishop’s ear, “do you know what time it is?” Then with a grin on her face she leans over to the nightstand and seductively pulls open the top drawer... and pulls out her warn blue copy of the Book of Mormon. It’s scripture time she exclaims! They slog through Alma 32 and share their testimonies before stripping out of their clothes, and kneeling down together in their garments bedside to say their prayers. Their six year old interrupts them and spends half the night sleeping between them in their bed.

Friday comes around and the couple have never felt closer during the week as they attend their 12 year old daughter’s choir concert at the junior high. They walk hand in hand to the car after and watch as the sun sets over and behind the gymnasium roof.

Saturday, Bishop gets up and does the yard work, soaking his double layered t-shirt from the sweat of his brow. He knows his week long efforts have had to impress Sister Perkins and tonight is the night!

He was right! As they got in bed they read 3 extra chapters of scriptures, then told her to say the prayer as they knelt down. She expressed the most heartfelt sincere prayer.

Dear Heavenly Father,

Thank you for this day. Thank you for the beautiful family we share and our love for thy gospel. Please bless us as we are about to partake of each other’s bodily sacraments, to express our deep love and desire for each other within the bounds of the sacred teachings of the prophets interpretations of the law of chastity! Bless us that we may have marital relations filled with clean thoughts, light motion, and spiritual confirmation that we are morally clean vessels of the Lord’s spirit. We ask thee to have the spirit, even the Holy Ghost present during our marital relations. We ask that thou will bless the “refreshments” and we humbly ask for these things in the name of Jesus Christ Amen.

They then proceed to have missionary position sex, and three minutes later Bishop and Sister Perkins are quickly falling asleep on separate sides of the bed. Goodnight. Did you set your alarm, she whispers? You don’t want to be late for Ward Counsel tomorrow.

Sister Watson and the Perkins know that God Ordained Marital Intimacy is a true principle of the Lord! They testify of its truth. They have felt the blessings of the Lord in their marriage and have felt the hand of God strengthen their lives and family. This it is true!

OH....MY.....GAWD!!!

If this is heaven,...I'm running blissfully to hell!

[Red Ryder]

Rob, I’m not your bishop so this may be inappropriate to ask, but have you had sexual relations since your divorce? I get the sense that you still feel broken regarding ownership of your own sexuality.

Rob, it’s ok to be sexual. It’s normal for humans to have sexual relationships with each other. I would encourage you to find ways to heal yourself so that you may enjoy this aspect of the human experience.

I’m not an expert on internet dating but I know there are apps to help bring people together.

Have you tried FarmersOnly.com?

I’m sure their might be a sweet young farm lady from Delta? Give it a shot!

[Rob4Hope]

Rob, I’m not your bishop so this may be inappropriate to ask, but have you had sexual relations since your divorce? I get the sense that you still feel broken regarding ownership of your own sexuality.

Rob, it’s ok to be sexual. It’s normal for humans to have sexual relationships with each other. I would encourage you to find ways to heal yourself so that you may enjoy this aspect of the human experience.

I’m not an expert on internet dating but I know there are apps to help bring people together.

Have you tried FarmersOnly.com?

I’m sure their might be a sweet young farm lady from Delta? Give it a shot!

Well...those Delta woman?....I was thinking more along the lines of Ricks College Alumni. Or someone from Utah County. After all, I do have a brand new set of scriptures out,...and frankly, I CAN WAIT to get into them with my true love as we build marital bliss!!!!!!

[Palerider]

Another interesting aspect of these teachings is the creation of the "cafeteria Mormon".

I attended BYU and used to go around campus thinking, "Ok, that guy is about five years older than me and he's the first counselor in our Bishopric. He has a girlfriend but not engaged. He's well on his way with his education. He seems to be in no hurry to get married.

Then there's this guy over here, who is married and has been for three or four years now but still no children. He and his wife are both going to school and working. Just supporting themselves. Both have temple recommends. Enjoying the experience!

Frankly, there were lots of these kinds of people around who seemed to feel no obligation whatsoever to "follow the prophet" and his counsel on marriage, sex and children. There were lots of times when I asked myself, "Am I missing something here?"

It was only years later that I realized they were blatantly picking and choosing which commandments to obey and which not to. And the funny thing was that they were in no way penalized by the church for their nonchalance. Rather they were considered wise because they had taken advantage of their opportunity to keep themselves free from being over burdened by the demands of life.

But if you had accused them of being "cafeteria Mormons" everyone would have looked on as if you had pointed out a fly in the punch bowl. And you would be considered a judgemental ingrate as well. Sincere Mormons get reprimanded for daring to question why leaderships' counsel doesn't work in their lives.
Good ol' boy Mormons get rewarded for knowing which commandments they can ignore with impunity.

[Rob4Hope]

Another interesting aspect of these teachings is the creation of the "cafeteria Mormon".

I attended BYU and used to go around campus thinking, "Ok, that guy is about five years older than me and he's the first counselor in our Bishopric. He has a girlfriend but not engaged. He's well on his way with his education. He seems to be in no hurry to get married.

Then there's this guy over here, who is married and has been for three or four years now but still no children. He and his wife are both going to school and working. Just supporting themselves. Both have temple recommends. Enjoying the experience!

Frankly, there were lots of these kinds of people around who seemed to feel no obligation whatsoever to "follow the prophet" and his counsel on marriage, sex and children. There were lots of times when I asked myself, "Am I missing something here?"

It was only years later that I realized they were blatantly picking and choosing which commandments to obey and which not to. And the funny thing was that they were in no way penalized by the church for their nonchalance. Rather they were considered wise because they had taken advantage of their opportunity to keep themselves free from being over burdened by the demands of life.

But if you had accused them of being "cafeteria Mormons" everyone would have looked on as if you had pointed out a fly in the punch bowl. And you would be considered a judgemental ingrate as well. Sincere Mormons get reprimanded for daring to question why leaderships' counsel doesn't work in their lives.
Good ol' boy Mormons get rewarded for knowing which commandments they can ignore with impunity.

I actually think the doctrines--the way they are delivered and enforced--are handled with the intent of channeling/controlling cafeteria Mormons. I actually think that this is by design, to a degree.

Thoughts?

[jfro18]

She leans over and whispers in the good old Bishop’s ear, “do you know what time it is?” Then with a grin on her face she leans over to the nightstand and seductively pulls open the top drawer... and pulls out her warn blue copy of the Book of Mormon. It’s scripture time she exclaims! They slog through Alma 32 and share their testimonies before stripping out of their clothes, and kneeling down together in their garments bedside to say their prayers. Their six year old interrupts them and spends half the night sleeping between them in their bed.

Living forever in garments is what I would consider hell. Im so glad Joseph thought them up to identify those in polygamy early because I'm so thrilled I had to wear them and DW will never stop wearing them.

Garments deter intimacy - they should be worn by unmarried people who the church wants to deter from being attracted to each other.

[wtfluff]

SNIP!

Yeah, I'm not going to quote the entire thing because...

[Rob4Hope]

[/size]=55]SNIP!

I read that 'SNIP' part and first thought was....yep, the final solution!

OUCH!!!!

[Palerider]

I actually think the doctrines--the way they are delivered and enforced--are handled with the intent of channeling/controlling cafeteria Mormons. I actually think that this is by design, to a degree.

Thoughts?

"Channeling/controlling cafeteria Mormons" in what particular way? If the church desires behavior modification, there's a subgroup that is quite obedient and willing to cast aside their own common sense without a second thought. That was me....

But there's also that group that likes to see themselves as being very obedient but then when it comes right down to following church counsel they have no compunction about living life their way and still maintaining their self perception as a righteous person. A righteous person who especially loves to avoid suffering on behalf of the church.

You see, as long as they don't smell of tobacco or liquor, don't get caught drinking coffee and they continue to pay their ten percent, the church seems not to have a problem with rewarding them with the church stamp of approval. The get out of hell free card that declares you're a righteous person. Somewhere along the way they have learned to apply the "I'm special" principle when it comes to suffering or discomfort.

"You want me to place the church first in everything I do, including my most intimate life with my spouse???

Suuure....I can do that, no problem!!! Except during those times where I'm special and the principle doesn't apply to me. And that will happen just about anytime it looks like I may have to suffer for the church. That's when the "I'm special" principle kicks in and I have a big exemption card that I drag out of my back pocket.

And the church never seems to mind. They just keep right on giving me my "Righteous Dude" card as long as I don't smell bad or stop making my payments. Even if someone committs adultery they only take it away for a relatively short time.

[Rob4Hope]

Hey PR (and everyone else),

I just re-read some of the posts I've put out there, and my writing is atrocious! I really can write! Because this is a more involved post, I will make sure to re-read it, make corrections, and at least make sure my verb tenses match.

Here we go.

When I was a young man, I remember feeling perplexed by the rules taught in church and how they were lived in the general membership. Back then I concluded there were 2 sets of rules: Sunday Rules and Other Day Rules. I came to this conclusion after being involved in a very nasty LDS softball game. It didn't make sense why those men would conduct themselves on the ball field the way they did, and then the next day preach kindness and love over the pulpit.

As time passed, I revised this 2 rule system to a 3 rule system. Now, I'm not super good at doing graphics on these posts but think of a 3 circle ven diagram. Each of those circles has one of the following and have overlaps amongst themselves:

1. Rules that are written
2. Rules that are obeyed
3. Rules that are enforced.

It's inside this type of system where the wiggle room for managing "cafeteria Mormons" happens. Here are some examples of each with comments.

A) 1-2-3 all overlap. A rule: "Don't Murder". This is something written, generally obeyed and enforced. Those who deviate and are caught usually pay a price.

B) 1-2 overlap. When you have this situation, you don't need enforcement. But If I thought long enough, I'm sure I could come up with an example of this. Right off the top of my head, I don't have an example. Does anyone have an idea?

C) 1-3 overlap. Here is an example of something pretty common in Utah, and its this group, in particular, I'm going to comment on below. For this example, look at the speed limits written along the roads, and how the police enforce (or don't enforce) that limit. The wiggle room here has to do with the sporadic and inconsistent way it's enforced. Anyone who drives in Utah knows that the average speed is around 75-85 MPH along the Wasatch Front, coming in and going out of SLC. This is speeding. However, it's not enforced because everyone is doing it. For about 6 years I commuted from SLC up to Davis County each morning for work. I use to marvel how 20 MPH over the speed limit was NORMAL!

A similar common example would be jay-walking. It's illegal to walk across the street in certain places; you are supposed to stay inside the cross-walk. That is a written law. But, how many times have you seen a police officer enforce that?

D) 2-3 overlap. I have a good example of this one. It is NOT written that YM should wear white shirts and ties to pass the sacrament; however, it is something that is generally obeyed, and bishops enforce it. Those who don't obey are often prevented from passing the sacrament.

---------------------

OK...lets look at letter C above. The wiggle room, like I said above, comes from the spurious manner in which enforcement happens. Let's use the common practice of masturbation. You can argue that this practice has never been condemned in writing by LDS authorities, but I would disagree with that, provided we move back in time far enough. The "For the Strength of Youth" (1990) edition prohibits masturbation. Juxtapose that with statements from Vaughn J. Featherstone about there being 2 types of boys: those who masturbate and those who lie about it. Clearly at that time, masturbation was a condemned practice, but also a very common one.

I've read numerous statements that indicate masturbation is a normal developmental practice. Netasha Helfer-Parker posted on this, and from her research, she can't get a definitive response from the church about current policy. The church has stricken the word from the 1990 edition of "For the Strength of Youth", but there is a LOT of confusion about the current status.

Since the church is aware that the practice is VERY common, and since it has been condemned in the past and never disavowed, is it possible the church knows it's going on but intentionally not doing much about it? You have leaders who sometimes enforce these rules in their stakes or wards. I was in a ward where the temple recommend interview had an additional question: "When was the last time you masturbated?" No kidding,...it was asked just like that of all the men. There are other wards/stakes where questions like this are not asked. When someone does it, the leadership isn't even interested (which is the RIGHT attitude IMHO).

This is an example of managing cafeteria Mormons. Masturbation is a general practice. Those who do it ignore past injunctions and probably take refuge in the current ambivalence about whatever the policy is. The church is finding ways, IMHO, to NOT enforce their own rules, save in the weird stakes where pious zealot leaderships take it upon themselves to set moral standards according to old antiquated teachings.

So, this is an example.

Anyone got other examples?

[moksha]

Anyone got other examples?

LDS leaders are like a box of chocolates.