Bishops as counselors

[abiogenesis]

Greetings. New to posting on the board. My shelf broke many years ago but I have been maintaining a low profile. I will probably continue to not post much and mostly lurk.

To the point of the post, I have recently had the misfortune of needing to revisit some old topics that are the result of untrained bishops playing the role of counselor. I have had many very good bishops over the years who were well-meaning. I also believe that the church is getting better at directing people to trained counselors when needed. However, there are still missteps and there is still fallout from some decisions made by bishops in the past.

This type of behavior is probably long gone (hopefully) but I had a bishop in the 1980s that directed someone to homeopathic treatments for clinical depression and several that thought mental illness was the result of unrighteousness. The damage included at least one suicide by a teen that received spiritual but not professional counseling. There were also many cases of untreated or poorly treated conditions in other children and adults.

I would imagine this has been discussed at length on many forums but tasking a bishop who has been trained as a lawyer, accountant, business manager, etc with counseling is ill advised. Even in the majority of cases where the bishop's intentions are to perform to the best of their ability, they do not have the proper training to fill that requirement. They often do not even have an adequate understanding of the underlying issues to even know where to begin.

[Linked]

Definitely. Unfortunately even those trained in psychology can say damaging things. A member of my stake presidency who holds a Phd in psychology once told the congregation that most bouts of depression could be cured better by praying and reading scriptures than by attending counseling. The magical worldview and one True church beliefs can really screw people up.

[Just This Guy]

One way to look at is to ask why does the church professional councilors at all? Why would the church ever need to refer someone to pro. services of the bishop is really what the church claims it to be. The church said that bishops are called by god and given knowledge and discernment to care for the people in the ward. If that were so, then the bishop would be able to provide the exact council that each person needs. But the fact that they refer people says that they know a bishop can't do what they claim.

[Mormorrisey]

I can only agree with OP and the others that most bishops are untrained as counselors. Maybe they can help with spiritual stuff, but my goodness, to help those suffering from abuse, depression and mental illness? No. Not at all. Unless they are trained professionals - and even then they might put their bishop hat on a little too much.

When I was in the calling that shall not be named, I had a great relationship with the LDS Services folks, and they were pretty good therapists. I suspect now that I gave them plenty of customers and paid for most of them out of fast offerings, but I wouldn't have done it any different. Many people need professional help, and I wasn't it.

[Palerider]

Seems from what the New Testament scriptures indicate, Bishops were originally ordained to "watch over the flock" in a given area. That would likely include giving/obtaining appropriate aid to/for those in need, guarding the doctrine of the church and serving as judge regarding those who were "out of the way".
I have no doubt that an ancient Bishop would have felt comfortable either sending for a physician of the body to aid the sick in his jurisdiction or calling for the elders as well.

But given the mission creep inherent in a church founded on false doctrine, the Mormon version of Bishop became subject to all manner of self-aggrandizement. Healing through a miraculous priesthood blessing would only serve to strengthen the church's position as the "one and only". Casting out false spirits and healing the "lunatic" are great fodder for the Mormon grapevine especially when, in cases of failure the general population still accepts unworthiness and self blame as the fault.

And it is this "failure rate" that has finally caught up with the church.

The body of the church is no longer willing to accept their wickedness as the reason for the failure of priesthood blessings. Especially when so many are sincerely living the commandments to the best of their ability and understanding. Not only are the Bishops beginning to look powerless but even the apostles are fighting impotence on more than one front. Hence the desperate need for Bednar's speech questioning our faith NOT to be healed.

Better to call in the secular professionals and let them take the blame when success fails to appear than to continue undermining church power and authority with failing Bishops. After all the church can still lay claim to God's miracles operating through societal advances when the doctors get it right.

[Not Buying It]

According to the Church, the Holy Ghost is inspiring all of them in the counsel they give members (even the ones convicted of sexual crimes, I wonder?). But what you see is exactly what you’d expect if all of them are just giving the best advice they know how based on their own limited judgment - wild discrepancies in what one bishop says compared to another, examples of both very good and extremely poor judgment, and all kinds of personal ideas elevated to the status of revelation given by leadership.

On the one hand, poor guys, they have been put into a key position and told a system works when it really doesn’t. On the other hand, they perpetuate a broken system when a lot of them have seen up close how broken it is, but support it anyway and thereby do a great deal of harm to the members they serve.

[2bizE]

I know a bishop who is a plumber, electrician, carpenter, and general handyman. He can fix anything, so surely he is qualified to fix a broken marriage or a sexually abused child...right?

[moksha]

I know a bishop who is a plumber, electrician, carpenter, and general handyman. He can fix anything, so surely he is qualified to fix a broken marriage or a sexually abused child...right?

Common sense and compassion can go a long way in making for a helping relationship. Unfortunately, extreme conservatism can drastically impede any sense of compassion and helping can be replaced with guilt-inducing platitudes.

[Exiled]

I know a bishop who is a plumber, electrician, carpenter, and general handyman. He can fix anything, so surely he is qualified to fix a broken marriage or a sexually abused child...right?

Plumbers are great when it comes to marriage counseling. They deal with a lot of s___ in their jobs and so can deal with your marriage s____. Electricians know how to put spark back into relationships. Wasn't Jesus a carpenter? Nuff said. Also, its an unwritten rule that handymen are good listeners. The last handyman I used knew what I wanted even though I never told him what to do. The $15,000 bill was well worth it and we love the bright orange and green cabinets he installed. Although, at least I love them and my wife will eventually come around, I think .....

[Brent]

If the church trains them then the church is responsible for what they say.

Ask the church lawyers, they know.

[1smartdodog]

So many people are looking for a fix. The church and members perpetuate the notion that the bishop has the fix. Worse some believe they do.

As long as the notion persists god is speaking through them they will dabble in therapy sessions.


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[alas]

As a trained counselor, we are trained not to tell people what they should do, or make their moral decisions for them, define right and wrong for them, or even give advice. We may suggest options, and a good counselor will suggest several options, then help the client examine them and determine the best one for them.

A bishop’s job is different in that he does help people with moral decisions. But the problem comes when bishops put the moral good of staying married above the moral good of not beating your wife, or they put the moral good of being married when a child is born above the moral good of the two parents being mature enough for marriage or living each other. Or they think that because a mother is single now and can’t give her child a two parent sealed in the temple family, that she will not provide the best family for that child.

If they just trained bishops not to take over the free agency of the people they counsel it would help. Bishops should not tell battered women not to divorce. She is the one who knows how bad the abuse is and if there is any chance the batterer will change. She is the only one who can say when she is ready to leave. (But 9 times out of 10 leave is the eventual answer) bishops should not to tell the pregnant couple to marry, because often the same immaturity that got them pregnant will not disappear and marriage is just one more problem that will have to be undone. Bishops should not to tell the single pregnant girl to give her baby away, but guide her to make the best decision for her and her baby. Too often Mormon bishops nay look at what is best for the baby and forget about what might be best for the mother. If bishops were just trained to let people make their own decisions it would help tremendously.

[Thoughtful]

Definitely. Unfortunately even those trained in psychology can say damaging things. A member of my stake presidency who holds a Phd in psychology once told the congregation that most bouts of depression could be cured better by praying and reading scriptures than by attending counseling. The magical worldview and one True church beliefs can really screw people up.

This is straight outta Packer. The study of the gospel will change behavior faster than the study of behavior...my bp has a phd in psych and quotes v the same ridiculous quote.

[Thoughtful]

As a trained counselor, we are trained not to tell people what they should do, or make their moral decisions for them, define right and wrong for them, or even give advice. We may suggest options, and a good counselor will suggest several options, then help the client examine them and determine the best one for them.

A bishop’s job is different in that he does help people with moral decisions. But the problem comes when bishops put the moral good of staying married above the moral good of not beating your wife, or they put the moral good of being married when a child is born above the moral good of the two parents being mature enough for marriage or living each other. Or they think that because a mother is single now and can’t give her child a two parent sealed in the temple family, that she will not provide the best family for that child.

If they just trained bishops not to take over the free agency of the people they counsel it would help. Bishops should not tell battered women not to divorce. She is the one who knows how bad the abuse is and if there is any chance the batterer will change. She is the only one who can say when she is ready to leave. (But 9 times out of 10 leave is the eventual answer) bishops should not to tell the pregnant couple to marry, because often the same immaturity that got them pregnant will not disappear and marriage is just one more problem that will have to be undone. Bishops should not to tell the single pregnant girl to give her baby away, but guide her to make the best decision for her and her baby. Too often Mormon bishops nay look at what is best for the baby and forget about what might be best for the mother. If bishops were just trained to let people make their own decisions it would help tremendously.

And bishops are not allowed to explore what divorce might look like, what single women keeping their baby, etc. They have a party line that must be followed via the handbook. My siblings bp went off script a bit, he couldn't tell them the obvious that divorce was an option (the right one too.) He wasn't allowed. So he had to say instead, "your heavenly father wants you to be happy. It's ok for you to choose that." Whereas a trained pro would have been lining up resources to get them safe months earlier....

[alas]

As a trained counselor, we are trained not to tell people what they should do, or make their moral decisions for them, define right and wrong for them, or even give advice. We may suggest options, and a good counselor will suggest several options, then help the client examine them and determine the best one for them.

A bishop’s job is different in that he does help people with moral decisions. But the problem comes when bishops put the moral good of staying married above the moral good of not beating your wife, or they put the moral good of being married when a child is born above the moral good of the two parents being mature enough for marriage or living each other. Or they think that because a mother is single now and can’t give her child a two parent sealed in the temple family, that she will not provide the best family for that child.

If they just trained bishops not to take over the free agency of the people they counsel it would help. Bishops should not tell battered women not to divorce. She is the one who knows how bad the abuse is and if there is any chance the batterer will change. She is the only one who can say when she is ready to leave. (But 9 times out of 10 leave is the eventual answer) bishops should not to tell the pregnant couple to marry, because often the same immaturity that got them pregnant will not disappear and marriage is just one more problem that will have to be undone. Bishops should not to tell the single pregnant girl to give her baby away, but guide her to make the best decision for her and her baby. Too often Mormon bishops nay look at what is best for the baby and forget about what might be best for the mother. If bishops were just trained to let people make their own decisions it would help tremendously.

And bishops are not allowed to explore what divorce might look like, what single women keeping their baby, etc. They have a party line that must be followed via the handbook. My siblings bp went off script a bit, he couldn't tell them the obvious that divorce was an option (the right one too.) He wasn't allowed. So he had to say instead, "your heavenly father wants you to be happy. It's ok for you to choose that." Whereas a trained pro would have been lining up resources to get them safe months earlier....

I heard of an LDS bishop who told a battered woman to go home and read a specific scripture. She got home, looked it up, and it read, “Get ye out.” (Or something to that effect) The Bishop could not advise divorce, because of the churches stupid misogynistic rules, but he could advise scripture reading.

I also know a bishop who was brought into his SP office for a chewing out because he physically helped the woman get her stuff out of the house before her angry husband destroyed everything important to her. As in killed the dog, destroyed her photo albums of her dead parents, broke all of her mother’s china. This husband had a habit of if he could not break her bones, he destroyed everything she loved. The SP said the bishop was “facilitating her getting the divorce” by helping her leave according to the SP.

While I worked at a battered women’s shelter, I heard/saw all kinds of stories of how the church not only does not “condone divorce” but tries to prevent the wife from leaving, even after she decides a divorce is the only way to survive. Things like telling the battering husband where his wife is hiding from him while she files for divorce because after beating her 20 years the husband has a *right* to try to talk her into staying. Things like testifying in court that the battering husband was a wonderful guy who would never hurt his wife and the wife was just making up lies to prevent him from seeing his children.

Never once while working at the battered women’s shelter did I see a Mormon bishop side with the battered wife and help her. But they gave the batterer housing, money, temple recommends, new callings, priesthood advancements, emotional support and sympathy—- the poor man was going through so much at the hands of his wicked wife. (These guys can really put on a tearful act with the bishop) While after years of abuse the woman has learned to hide her pain and so she I’d surviving by doing things in a mechanical manner. So, his “boohoo poor me” act wins the bishop’s sympathy and the bishop does everything in his power to make the battered woman stay.

In contrast, if a wife was even slightly emotionally abused or the wife in a fit of rage threw stuff or hit him ONCE, the bishop was openly advising the man to divorce her. At the shelter we also counseled but sheltered at a different location any abused man. So, we did have a few abused men as clients and they always had great support from their bishops to divorce. For the church, it was all about what was good for the man, and bishops just refused to see that wife battering was a crime and a sin, and could be fatal for the wife.