Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

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Hagoth
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Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:05 am

I have read a couple of books about Intelligent Design by a LDS biologists. An LDS biologist was an expert witness at the Kitzmiller v. Dover evolution case. I keep seeing the concept of Intelligent Design pop up in LDS conversations and articles. The problem is that Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism. At all.

Intelligent Design is based on the claims that the fingerprints of a celestial designer are embedded in nature in the form of systems and mechanisms that could not possibly have arisen by natural processes but only by a carefully planned and executed act of creation. One example is the ATP synthase in mitochondria: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d5QU7fCWpE

But this answers nothing for Mormonism. Mormon doctrine claims that God has a glorified physical body of flesh and bones. Elohim and Mrs. Elohim, and everyone/thing else came with all of that design already completely developed, as would have also been the case for God's father, and his father, etc. etc. So the identity of this Designer is unknowable to Mormon doctrine but is something much greater and more mysterious than anything Mormons would recognize or identify as God. This means Elohim is not God, just a powerful alien posing as a god, like some wacky Star Trek villain. God, by way of his ancestors, must have evolved via natural means or they were the creation of a greater Designer that would be equally beyond their knowledge and comprehension.

No matter how vigorously you kick the can it just gets you back to the same problem.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Exiled
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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by Exiled » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:20 am


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wtfluff
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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by wtfluff » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:47 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:05 am
...
Elohim and Mrs. Elohim
...
Ahem... Don't you mean Elohim and Eloher?

[Sorry for the stupid apostate joke... Back to your normally scheduled thread...]
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Hagoth
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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:11 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:47 pm
Ahem... Don't you mean Elohim and Eloher?
More like Elothem
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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wtfluff
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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by wtfluff » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:26 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:11 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:47 pm
Ahem... Don't you mean Elohim and Eloher?
More like Elothem
Yes. Even better!
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by blazerb » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:35 pm

But the new Mormonism with its 9 core doctrines that don't say much is fine with intelligent design. We've jettisoned almost all of the interesting doctrines in order to look more normal. GBH declares that we don't know much about God's progression to becoming a god. I hardly ever hear talk about man being a "god in embryo" anymore.

I need to add that I agree that these doctrines mean that the god of my fathers was not really a god in the normal religious sense. I just think the church has moved aggressively to downplay them.

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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by Thoughtful » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:45 pm

I feel like the history channel guy could get behind this theory.

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moksha
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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by moksha » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:22 am

Exiled wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:20 am
Could this be the mormon god?

https://tropeanddagger.files.wordpress. ... qjudge.jpg
Clean-shaven and possibly with a white shirt and tie under that outfit, wonder if the Ensign Magazine would be interested in that photo for their December cover?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Hagoth
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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:43 am

blazerb wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:35 pm
But the new Mormonism with its 9 core doctrines that don't say much is fine with intelligent design. We've jettisoned almost all of the interesting doctrines in order to look more normal. GBH declares that we don't know much about God's progression to becoming a god. I hardly ever hear talk about man being a "god in embryo" anymore.

I need to add that I agree that these doctrines mean that the god of my fathers was not really a god in the normal religious sense. I just think the church has moved aggressively to downplay them.
Good point, blazerb, but Joseph's literal visitation by a physical God of flesh and bone is still the central story we're stuck with; a God who has a scrotum and nostril hairs. I agree that they are backpedaling but they have to balance their retreat with their adherence to the First Vision as the most significant event in history. It's the basis of their claim to authority over other churches. GBH's feigned ignorance holds no more theological water than Lorenzo Snow's "as Man is God once was," and certainly less than the Follett discourse.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by jfro18 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:15 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:05 am
But this answers nothing for Mormonism.
This comes down to a lot of the problems with Mormonism -- they will fall back to apologetics to show that the Bible has just as crazy of stories, or that there is not concrete evidence for God in Christianity either, or that prophets were imperfect like Joseph...

But at the end of the day, no matter how hard to try to prove Christianity is true it still leaves Mormonism with the same problems it had before and in a lot of ways emphasizes that the problems are even worse for Mormonism because there are answers elsewhere.

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Hagoth
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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:44 am

I think Intelligent Design (as opposed to mainline creationism, which has unfortunately hijacked the term) is worthy of thought provoking dialog, but Mormons can't even enter the conversation, partially for the same reason Mormon apologists feel the need to throw the Bible under the bus.

Another problem with ID is that it isn't dependent on Yahweh and the Bible, let alone the First Vision. The proposed designer would not be something forged in Man's image.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by Lloyd Christmas » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:52 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:05 am
I have read a couple of books about Intelligent Design by a LDS biologists. An LDS biologist was an expert witness at the Kitzmiller v. Dover evolution case. I keep seeing the concept of Intelligent Design pop up in LDS conversations and articles. The problem is that Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism. At all.

Intelligent Design is based on the claims that the fingerprints of a celestial designer are embedded in nature in the form of systems and mechanisms that could not possibly have arisen by natural processes but only by a carefully planned and executed act of creation. One example is the ATP synthase in mitochondria: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d5QU7fCWpE

But this answers nothing for Mormonism. Mormon doctrine claims that God has a glorified physical body of flesh and bones. Elohim and Mrs. Elohim, and everyone/thing else came with all of that design already completely developed, as would have also been the case for God's father, and his father, etc. etc. So the identity of this Designer is unknowable to Mormon doctrine but is something much greater and more mysterious than anything Mormons would recognize or identify as God. This means Elohim is not God, just a powerful alien posing as a god, like some wacky Star Trek villain. God, by way of his ancestors, must have evolved via natural means or they were the creation of a greater Designer that would be equally beyond their knowledge and comprehension.

No matter how vigorously you kick the can it just gets you back to the same problem.

I remember being interested in Intelligent Design during my mission, but when I looked deeper, Mormon doctrine and intelligent design don't mix. I remember reading a quote by Bruce R. that described it well. If God used evolution to create, it means that Adam could not have existed in his state prior to the fall. The world could not have existed in the garden of Eden state. And without Adam in that state, there would be no Fall, which would mean no need for an atonement. Without the Atonement there is no need for Christ. While the Church has distanced itself from BRM, his logic still stands. One can't have intelligent design and a Fall/atonement as described by LDS doctrine. Evolution, even guided by a supreme being, does not work with LDS theology.

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Hagoth
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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:00 am

According to H. P. Lovecraft, humanity was created by The Old Ones as a sort of cosmic joke. That works with Intelligent Design just as well as does the Yahweh hypothesis. Also, I guess it would work for the we're-all-living-in-a-simulation theory. Someone had to write the code.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by blazerb » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:06 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:43 am
Good point, blazerb, but Joseph's literal visitation by a physical God of flesh and bone is still the central story we're stuck with; a God who has a scrotum and nostril hairs. I agree that they are backpedaling but they have to balance their retreat with their adherence to the First Vision as the most significant event in history. It's the basis of their claim to authority over other churches. GBH's feigned ignorance holds no more theological water than Lorenzo Snow's "as Man is God once was," and certainly less than the Follett discourse.
I agree. They will change the doctrine ever so slowly. We will see more "feigned ignorance" if church leaders ever give more interviews.
jfro18 wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:15 am
This comes down to a lot of the problems with Mormonism -- they will fall back to apologetics to show that the Bible has just as crazy of stories, or that there is not concrete evidence for God in Christianity either, or that prophets were imperfect like Joseph...

But at the end of the day, no matter how hard to try to prove Christianity is true it still leaves Mormonism with the same problems it had before and in a lot of ways emphasizes that the problems are even worse for Mormonism because there are answers elsewhere.
The tactic of pointing out the problems in the Bible as explanations for the problems with LDS scriptures is absurd. Mormonism has to own all the problems with the Bible and with its distinctive scriptures.

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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by Linked » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:59 pm

Lloyd Christmas wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:52 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:05 am
I have read a couple of books about Intelligent Design by a LDS biologists. An LDS biologist was an expert witness at the Kitzmiller v. Dover evolution case. I keep seeing the concept of Intelligent Design pop up in LDS conversations and articles. The problem is that Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism. At all.

Intelligent Design is based on the claims that the fingerprints of a celestial designer are embedded in nature in the form of systems and mechanisms that could not possibly have arisen by natural processes but only by a carefully planned and executed act of creation. One example is the ATP synthase in mitochondria: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d5QU7fCWpE

But this answers nothing for Mormonism. Mormon doctrine claims that God has a glorified physical body of flesh and bones. Elohim and Mrs. Elohim, and everyone/thing else came with all of that design already completely developed, as would have also been the case for God's father, and his father, etc. etc. So the identity of this Designer is unknowable to Mormon doctrine but is something much greater and more mysterious than anything Mormons would recognize or identify as God. This means Elohim is not God, just a powerful alien posing as a god, like some wacky Star Trek villain. God, by way of his ancestors, must have evolved via natural means or they were the creation of a greater Designer that would be equally beyond their knowledge and comprehension.

No matter how vigorously you kick the can it just gets you back to the same problem.

I remember being interested in Intelligent Design during my mission, but when I looked deeper, Mormon doctrine and intelligent design don't mix. I remember reading a quote by Bruce R. that described it well. If God used evolution to create, it means that Adam could not have existed in his state prior to the fall. The world could not have existed in the garden of Eden state. And without Adam in that state, there would be no Fall, which would mean no need for an atonement. Without the Atonement there is no need for Christ. While the Church has distanced itself from BRM, his logic still stands. One can't have intelligent design and a Fall/atonement as described by LDS doctrine. Evolution, even guided by a supreme being, does not work with LDS theology.
For a while I held a belief in the church while accepting evolution. The mental gymnastics weren't too bad for that if you didn't think to hard about it. I thought that maybe God picked Adam and Eve as the first children of God from the humans at the time and put spirits in them. Then any of their children were also children of God and had spirits. The "no death before the fall" can be handwaved as only applying to spirited people. Honestly, adding evolution to the Adam and Eve story made it more interesting because it felt like I was finding out new stuff.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Hagoth
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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:52 pm

Linked wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:59 pm
For a while I held a belief in the church while accepting evolution. The mental gymnastics weren't too bad for that if you didn't think to hard about it. I thought that maybe God picked Adam and Eve as the first children of God from the humans at the time and put spirits in them. Then any of their children were also children of God and had spirits. The "no death before the fall" can be handwaved as only applying to spirited people. Honestly, adding evolution to the Adam and Eve story made it more interesting because it felt like I was finding out new stuff.
That was exactly where I ended up right before I realized that it all worked better when you took devils, angels, and talking snakes entirely out of the story.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by alas » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:37 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:52 pm
Linked wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:59 pm
For a while I held a belief in the church while accepting evolution. The mental gymnastics weren't too bad for that if you didn't think to hard about it. I thought that maybe God picked Adam and Eve as the first children of God from the humans at the time and put spirits in them. Then any of their children were also children of God and had spirits. The "no death before the fall" can be handwaved as only applying to spirited people. Honestly, adding evolution to the Adam and Eve story made it more interesting because it felt like I was finding out new stuff.
That was exactly where I ended up right before I realized that it all worked better when you took devils, angels, and talking snakes entirely out of the story.
Try interpreting the Garden of Eden story as a metaphor for our coming to earth. We live with God in a protected type environment that is ideal with no sickness or death. (Pre-existence) Then we each choose to come to a fallen earth where we each have the knowledge of good and evil to guide us and we are subject to all earthly ills of working by the sweat of our brow, bla bla bla. You would still need an atonement because we still live on a fallen world, it has just always been n this state.

Then evolution would work if you have God putting spirits into people at whatever point n our evolution.

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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by moksha » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:07 pm

Wasn't Intelligent Design specified under article 7, section 233, subsection 5482 of The Plan, next to the codicil on polygamy being exempt from intelligent design?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by Random » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:08 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:47 pm
Ahem... Don't you mean Elohim and Eloher?
:lol: :lol: Made me laugh out loud. I totally had never noticed "him" in the word. :lol: :lol:
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
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Re: Why Intelligent Design doesn't work for Mormonism

Post by Random » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:09 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:11 pm
More like Elothem
That works for me.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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