More random thoughts about the nature of God

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Hagoth
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More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by Hagoth » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:54 am

Tell me if I'm wrong about this.

I believe it is perfectly valid to say "I believe in God, but not in Odin, Zeus, Yahweh, Elohim, or any of the other gods from antiquity that were forged in the image of man." (or as Alan Watts said, in the image of a bronze age benevolent tyrant).

People who don't take the Bible, or the Book of Mormon for that matter, literally are generally assumed to be atheists, but there is absolutely no reason a person couldn't have a very deep belief in and a spiritual relationship with God completely outside of descriptions in man-made texts.

One of the major divisions Mormons have with other Christian sects is their supposed misunderstanding of the nature of God. We have been taught countless times that those sects now have an incomplete understanding of the nature of God because of the actions of men who tore the "plain and precious truths" about him out of the scripture because those teachings no longer accorded with their own degenerate doctrines and power structures.

The problem here is that Mormon have done exactly the same thing. The original language about God in the Book of Mormon was later edited to create a picture of a less trinitarian God than it originally portrayed as the early church moved away from that version of the godhead. Most members have no idea that the concept of God/Elohim and Jesus/Jehovah as unique flesh-and-blood beings came late in Joseph's theological development. Worse, our scriptures once held descriptions of a very different godhead than what the church now teaches. Those pages - the Lectures on Faith in the D&C - were torn out of the scriptures in exactly the same way we suppose was done by the "wicked" men who censored the Bible. They would be lost and forgotten if it hadn't happened in an age of printing where multiple copies of the original were still hanging around.

Further, Brigham Young continued to evolve a definition of the godhead which he (a prophet mind you) claimed came directly from Joseph. That version of the godhead has now been redacted from the temple ceremony and otherwise been labeled a heresy.

How are Mormons any better than those wicked and self-serving editors of the Bible?

Given the flexible nature of God in Christian and Mormon scripture and doctrine, why should it be such a blasphemy to maintain a belief in God while rejecting what humans have written about Him/Her/Them/It/Us? I suppose the blasphemy is really rooted in the idea that you, an individual, are claiming that you have the same access to God as someone who has set themselves up as a special witness, regardless of what any other human has written?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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1smartdodog
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by 1smartdodog » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:23 am

Many people feel a connection to the universe, or that there is something bigger than themselves. I do think it is abundantly clear we do not know for sure what that is.


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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:41 am

I was blown away when I first read about the 20th century reframing of the identity of Jehovah away from Elohim by James Talmage. I mean, how could JS who claims to have seen both of them and also get tutored by the apostle Paul get that important identity confused causing the necessary latter day redefinition?

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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by Mackman » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:28 pm

Because he was a fake a conman a low life who married 14 year olds !!!! But then again we all know that !!!!

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Emower
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by Emower » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:29 pm

It is interesting that a church that began with such an egalitarian view on truth and worship has become such a rigid organization. Joseph, for all his demands on loyalty, secret keeping, excommunications and subsequent readmissions, seemed to be tolerant of other views. So much so that he would rip them off if they were any good. the tone shifted with Brigham Young and the development of the church in Utah. It became a "you are damned if you believe XYZ" kind of situation. I have not read any biographies on him, maybe he didn't have the charisma that Joseph did which forced him to rely on fear and intimidation?
Hagoth wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:54 am
I suppose the blasphemy is really rooted in the idea that you, an individual, are claiming that you have the same access to God as someone who has set themselves up as a special witness, regardless of what any other human has written?
Weird. I typed up a disagree response, then I saw where you were coming from. If I all of a sudden tell someone that I have had an experience which has shown me that God is actually a 12 armed lion obsessed with food offerings, I will automatically be dismissed based on that view not being congruent with what the prophets have told us. Which in itself implies that those prophets have different access to God. And as I think about it I have been taught my whole life that the prophets do have access to God in a "special" way. That way is not more important mind you, just different. But it sure is more important when you get a view that is out of step.

So I guess you are right? That is depressing, and why mixed faith relationships are so hard.

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Angel
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by Angel » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:35 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:54 am
Tell me if I'm wrong about this.

I believe it is perfectly valid to say "I believe in God, but not in Odin, Zeus, Yahweh, Elohim, or any of the other gods from antiquity that were forged in the image of man." (or as Alan Watts said, in the image of a bronze age benevolent tyrant).

There is a teaching about students who mistakenly worship and study a hand, rather than looking towards the object the hand is pointing towards. The hand is not the moon, the scriptures and prophets are not G-d, all the religions in the world - they are just pointing to something which cannot be described with words...
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Hagoth
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by Hagoth » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:28 am

Angel wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:35 pm
There is a teaching about students who mistakenly worship and study a hand, rather than looking towards the object the hand is pointing towards.
Love it.

All of this harkens back to to an earlier discussion about how Elohim, even if he is a real entity, can't be God in the sense of designer and creator of nature because he is part of nature: some guy who leveled up to superman status, already composed of cells, proteins, a brain, organs, systems, etc. ("a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's")

This seems to be a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees (Elohim being the trees, of course). Mormons aren't even worshiping the hand, they're worshiping the cuticle on one fingernail. To me the awe I feel at the notion that everything came about by itself via natural forces is far more wondrous than any kind of compulsion to worship one of potentially billions of cosmic supermen who were just following instructions to assemble Legos into planets and then devoting most of their time to nonstop procreation.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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deacon blues
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by deacon blues » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:16 am

What great comments. I really enjoy threads like this. Wouldn't it be fun if gospel doctrine classes had these kind of comments? My own thoughts about God are: 1) I imagine God as a perfectly loving being, and it isn't the Eloheim of the scriptures or general conference. 2) I think exploring the feminine aspect of God would be fascinating and enlightening, and the Church leaders won't touch it. Why not? 3) With all the hoopola about the Church, it seems that what many Mormons worship is The Church, the organization itself. If they can call out some people for worshipping boats or recreation, they could be called out for worshipping temples and leaders.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:20 pm

Take a journey beyond the waking filters of your mind with some natural magic molecules and you might quickly change your views on what or who God is. There is a pure joy there that is so overwhelming it transcends any emotional experience from any man-made dogma. It's a profound loss of the corporal self and a connection to the basic elements and particles of the universe. There is no linear time there; it's a complete fluid experience in a celestial realm. The more I study this an other older more altruistic religions, like the Buddhism, the more comfortable I am releasing myself from any particular god entity and embracing more of a universal cosmic existence with all matter in our universe.

I just finished a book called Be Here Now that has my mind reeling with new ideas and concepts. However, I still don't buy into the more religious aspects of those older religions, because they are still human language trying to explain things and assigning them god like entities; in my opinion they really fail. One of those failings is the cast system and explanations of reincarnation or enlightenment, but at least many of those holy men seem to have reached a point very close to altruism.

Sounds pretty out there, but I'm not planning any crazy trips to India. So far for me, I've experienced the the purest form of joy and love and all positive emotions; Holy Ghost is a joke in comparison! Each person experiences different things there, so you might actually see the white haired old man of Mormon invention if that is your current view. Hell, some of the early saints saw some crazy shiz when they were tripping on their special wine tinctures at the Kirkland temple. You never get that anymore at any modern temple dedication, not on any prescription drugs the LDS church is invested in. If TSCC wants to bring big spiritual experiences back, they'll need to swap the water for wine in sacrament meetings.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:50 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:Take a journey beyond the waking filters of your mind with some natural magic molecules and you might quickly change your views on what or who God is. There is a pure joy there that is so overwhelming it transcends any emotional experience from any man-made dogma. It's a profound loss of the corporal self and a connection to the basic elements and particles of the universe. There is no linear time there; it's a complete fluid experience in a celestial realm. The more I study this an other older more altruistic religions, like the Buddhism, the more comfortable I am releasing myself from any particular god entity and embracing more of a universal cosmic existence with all matter in our universe.

I just finished a book called Be Here Now that has my mind reeling with new ideas and concepts. However, I still don't buy into the more religious aspects of those older religions, because they are still human language trying to explain things and assigning them god like entities; in my opinion they really fail. One of those failings is the cast system and explanations of reincarnation or enlightenment, but at least many of those holy men seem to have reached a point very close to altruism.

Sounds pretty out there, but I'm not planning any crazy trips to India. So far for me, I've experienced the the purest form of joy and love and all positive emotions; Holy Ghost is a joke in comparison! Each person experiences different things there, so you might actually see the white haired old man of Mormon invention if that is your current view. Hell, some of the early saints saw some crazy shiz when they were tripping on their special wine tinctures at the Kirkland temple. You never get that anymore at any modern temple dedication, not on any prescription drugs the LDS church is invested in. If TSCC wants to bring big spiritual experiences back, they'll need to swap the water for wine in sacrament meetings.
Behold, I give you one of the most obscure mormon break off groups, The Peyote Way Church of God:

https://peyoteway.org/

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RubinHighlander
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:52 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:50 pm
Behold, I give you one of the most obscure mormon break off groups, The Peyote Way Church of God:
https://peyoteway.org/
I could get onboard with that! One of the guys I work with has been to one of those retreats with a shaman to do the Peyote thing. He said he'd definitely do it again.

Here is some of the fruit of this fungus. It is not delicious to the taste, but it is very desirable and it will give you KNOWLEDGE!
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Hagoth
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by Hagoth » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:31 am

deacon blues wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:16 am
I think exploring the feminine aspect of God would be fascinating and enlightening, and the Church leaders won't touch it. Why not?
Because Joseph saw a man with flesh, bones, nutsack, etc.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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wtfluff
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by wtfluff » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:25 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:31 am
deacon blues wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:16 am
I think exploring the feminine aspect of God would be fascinating and enlightening, and the Church leaders won't touch it. Why not?
Because Joseph saw a man with flesh, bones, nutsack, etc.
I'd say they don't want to touch anything related to the divine feminine because of the implications of polygamy also. Well... And the built in patriarchy/mysogyny inherent in the system. leadership is incapable of viewing women as anything but property; How could that planet near Kolob be any different than the fake reality they have built inside their church, and inside their brains?

Add the above to the fact that and they have absolutely no connection whatsoever to anything "divine." "The Church" really is nothing more than a corporation, run by a bunch of corporate stooges.
Last edited by wtfluff on Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RubinHighlander
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:25 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:31 am
deacon blues wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:16 am
I think exploring the feminine aspect of God would be fascinating and enlightening, and the Church leaders won't touch it. Why not?
Because Joseph saw a man with flesh, bones, nutsack, etc.
I was going to say, if it's all good don't check under the hood...er, robe, but I guess the beards and mustaches gave it away (in one of the several FV versions) that there was no feminine implied or otherwise...plus all the historical patriarchy as Fluff pointed out.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Emower
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by Emower » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:55 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:25 am
I'd say they don't want to touch anything related to the divine feminine because of the implications of polygamy also. Well... And the built in patriarchy/mysogyny inherent in the system. leadership is incapable of viewing women as anything but property; How could that planet near Kolob be any different than the fake reality they have built inside their church, and inside their brains?
Yeah, exploring the feminine God would be a seismic shift in how the Church views women. Is the church good at seismic shifts? The fact that the possibility of Heavenly Mother being in the background likely wearing an apron and baking cookies in advance of your arrival home is "deep doctrine" is telling. But then throw in the possibility of multiple heavenly mothers, which is mandatory according to our doctrine, and it all of a sudden becomes too far and uncomfortable.

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Angel
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by Angel » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:30 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:28 am
Angel wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:35 pm
There is a teaching about students who mistakenly worship and study a hand, rather than looking towards the object the hand is pointing towards.
Love it.

All of this harkens back to to an earlier discussion about how Elohim, even if he is a real entity, can't be God in the sense of designer and creator of nature because he is part of nature: some guy who leveled up to superman status, already composed of cells, proteins, a brain, organs, systems, etc. ("a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's")

This seems to be a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees (Elohim being the trees, of course). Mormons aren't even worshiping the hand, they're worshiping the cuticle on one fingernail. To me the awe I feel at the notion that everything came about by itself via natural forces is far more wondrous than any kind of compulsion to worship one of potentially billions of cosmic supermen who were just following instructions to assemble Legos into planets and then devoting most of their time to nonstop procreation.
This is another reason I am leaning towards Taoism:)
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Hagoth
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by Hagoth » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:50 am

Angel wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:30 pm
This is another reason I am leaning towards Taoism:)
Yeah, I think that's my next field of inquiry. I don't know much about it but from what I've read Taoism seems to have a breadth and flexibility that suits me.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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wtfluff
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by wtfluff » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:37 am

The Tao of Pooh

I'm told by another NoM that the above is a great place to start. I've read part of it, but haven't been able to get all the way through...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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Angel
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by Angel » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:59 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:50 am
Angel wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:30 pm
This is another reason I am leaning towards Taoism:)
Yeah, I think that's my next field of inquiry. I don't know much about it but from what I've read Taoism seems to have a breadth and flexibility that suits me.
I'm still learning too - yes, it is very flexible, no rituals, no dogma, no hierarchy - it's just letting yourself go with the flow, letting the natural laws of the universe take you where they may :) keep things simple, work without attachment, be spontaneous- live in the present. There are quite a few translations of the Tao Te Ching - you can listen to it on youtube as well. It's a happy, contented with where &what you are, peaceful sort of a thing :)
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Angel
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Re: More random thoughts about the nature of God

Post by Angel » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:01 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:37 am
The Tao of Pooh

I'm told by another NoM that the above is a great place to start. I've read part of it, but haven't been able to get all the way through...
That is a lovely book - you can get it as an audio book as well :)
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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