What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

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jfro18
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What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by jfro18 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:10 pm

I was reading just a blurb about the similarities between the endowment ceremony and the Masonic ceremony Joseph learned just 6 weeks prior to his 'revelation' on the new endowment ceremony and am always struck at how apologists say the similarities are just the vehicle where the message is so different and carries so much more meaning and learning.

I only went to temple 3 times because I had such a bad experience during my first one (when you were still naked and the old man got a little too close to my naked crotch), but I just can't remember learning *anything* that was different than what you're taught in the basic Mormon creation narrative.

So I'm honestly wondering - did anyone really learn much new there or come to new understandings with every visit as so many will say on social media and in church talks?

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Evil_Bert
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Evil_Bert » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:33 pm

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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oliblish
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by oliblish » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:57 pm

I remember back when my wife and I used to attend the temple after we were married. She would always ask me afterward what I learned that was new. It added a little more pressure each visit because I would have to come up with something to say afterward. That little bit of extra pressure did't help make me want to go.

Thinking back, I can't think of a single time that I went to the temple because I wanted to go. Every time I was invited by someone else (usually my wife). I went with friends a couple of times before I got married but it was always their idea. After I got married I never went unless my wife asked. We would go for date night or ward temple night. So I guess I never really enjoyed the temple or got anything out of it.
Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides; holding the key of power also, pertaining to other planets; as revealed from God to Abraham

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Red Ryder
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:04 pm

That God is a psycho!

Handshakes and special underwear? Really?!

During my TBM days I associated blessing my babies with the temple because there was similar hand movements. Think about it. right hand in cupping shape, holding the baby (gently bouncing it) while left hand was up at the square holding onto the dude’s shoulder next to me.

I thought that was special for whatever reason.

To me the temple in theory is ok. Bind yourself to God and family throughout eternity. Sounds excellent.

In practice it just sucks. You Wear funny costumes, get touched with shaky old dudes hand, promise to give all your time, talents, and money to THE CHURCH. The execution is pathetic. Practice slitting your throat and disembowling yourself, swear to penalties if you talk about it. The temple recommend process. The interviews. The polyester polygamy panties. The ties and binding to “worthiness”. The old people’s temple club where they go and sit around all day watching the same old movie over and over and over. NO THANKS

If God was not such a psychopath the temple would be simple but elegant and free for all to partake.

God: RR, do you feel worthy to partake of the temple blessings?

RR: No sir, I am humbly not worthy to be in your presence.

God: you may enter! Take your time, check out my art collection, use the bathroom, try on my bath robes, oh and don’t forget to try the tapioca pudding Heavenly Mother made yesterday! It’s to die (and get resurrected) for!!

RR: Hell yeah! Thanks sky daddy!
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

Anon70
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Anon70 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:24 pm

I have tried to discuss this with my DH before, I don't learn anything, ever. And I used to feel that meant something was wrong with me. I used to listen to these sisters in RS go on and on about how they learn something new EVERY TIME they attend. I think it's just more oneupmanship and spiritual competition. And I can't count the handshakes/tokens because I totally have a mental block and can't memorize any of that stuff so I guess I never learned it.

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Palerider
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Palerider » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:52 pm

Every time I went to the temple I learned there was A LOT that I didn't understand or know. I just didn't realize that I never would understand it because it's all gnostic gobbledy-goop. I think there is actually a rabbit hole one could go down to "learn" more about it but it won't help you get to Heaven and it won't improve your relationship with Heavenly Father. You might have to talk to a Mormon who is also a Mason. In the end you'll just know more stuff. Totally unnecessary. Totally man made. Totally a waste of time and effort. :oops:

The temples may be beautifully appointed but so are whited sepulchers. Inwardly in their doctrine they are full of dead men's bones.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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2bizE
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by 2bizE » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:21 pm

I learned things I had never thought of like Satan wore an apron that represented his power and priesthoods. Satan has priesthoods? Is this like the dark side of the Force? What are the names of these priesthoods? Sith?
~2bizE

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Emower
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Emower » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:28 pm

The first time I went through I almost raised my hand to leave when they asked. I wish I would have now. But, I, like everyone else, was struck by the weird clothing. I tried to ask about the symbolism of it all, like what are the ruffles on the shoulder of the robe? What is the little annoying string thing for? Why is the thing pleated up the wazoo? Whats the point of the sash? Why does it matter where its tied? People told me, we cant talk about that outside the celestial room. Ok, so the next time I tried to corner a few people in the celestial room it was clear no one knew, no one knew who knew, and I needed to be quiet and do some contemplation on the couch.

I feel like at some point I learned some esoteric insights about Eve and the fall, but honestly they were so insignificant that I cannot remember them now. Or maybe its the devil clouding my memory.

What I really learned was that this Church was mainly about obedience to authority, and secondly about everything else. It never felt too good.

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Red Ryder
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:32 pm

One more inherent problem is that members can attend the temple and declare they’ve learned some mystery of God that’s more than likely in there own head and claim it’s personal revelation.

This is extremely dangerous especially if there’s underlying mental health issues.

Brian David Mitchell probably “learned” things in the temple that initiated him acting out and kidnapping Elizabeth Smart.

The Lafferty’s probably “learned” things in the temple.

If someone has delusions that originate in the temple as personal revelation then what?

What if your spouse attends temple and comes home and says “God told me to divorce you?”
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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alas
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by alas » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:57 pm

I learned that I relate to God only through my husband. That God doesn’t really WANT a relationship with me, only my husband, sort of like a horrible mother in law. I learned that my husband becomes my Lord and my God in the next life. That I am really property that my husband owns. I learned that Heavenly Father does not really know his children as individuals, but needs secret handshakes and pass words in order to know they are his children. I learned that the Gadianton Robbers were not the only group to make you swear on your life that you would never reveal their secrets. I learned that the church is really a cult.

Then since I was having a hard time with all the things I had learned, my husband suggested we ask for a chance to talk to the temple president. Maybe he could explain, because I was really confused and my husband thought my questions were valid. And in talking to the temple president, I learned that nobody has any kind of loving explanation for the temple ceremony and it really was as horrible as it seemed, and that temple presidents get REAL nasty and tell you your attitude will take you straight to hell when you cannot accept their obviously stupid answers as truth. The truth was that the temple ceremony is so sexist it makes God look like a jerk. That there is no reason on earth why we should need signs and tokens to pass by the angels who can look at us and see our heart and have a written record of our earthly behavior right in front of them, but they need secret pass words. The Mormon church is really a secret combination that we are warned away from by the Book of Mormon. And only a cult has you promise to give everything you own to it, not to God, but to the church organization itself.

Oh, I learned a LOT in the temple, but I just couldn’t make myself believe any of it because that would make God worse than Satan. So, I put it all up on a shelf for some 35 more years.

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wtfluff
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by wtfluff » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:30 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:32 pm
What if your spouse attends temple and comes home and says “God told me to divorce you?”
I actually know someone who did this. Dead serious. No joke.


What did "I" really learn?

I remember thinking the first time through: I'm definitely in a cult. (I also know how human memory really works - so I'm likely projecting.)

I also remember a few times when my mother tried to give me a wink and a nod about a couple things she "learned" in the temple like: How important the right hand is, and how "mormons" were so awesome because of the patriarchal grip "mormons" knew more about how Christ was actually crucified - you know, two nails, and all that jazz. Again I remember thinking: Really? Those are the super secret things you've learned? Those are the "secrets of the universe?" How does that actually help a human navigate reality?

Other things that used to bounce around in the back of my head, right up there near the shelf were: How do Peter James and John shake Adam's hand if they haven't been born yet? That contradict's Joe Smith's method of finding good vs evil spirits. Also: MORmONism teaches that when we die we have a perfect recollection of everything that happened in our lives; Which means, there's no reason whatsoever to go back to the Polygamy Palace over and over to learn all the super secret handshakes and chants. I only needed to do it once, end of story.

And yet I went back... Over and over and over, because I was taught that I was broken, and plagiarized Masonic rituals and goofy costumes would somehow fix me. :cry:


So yeah, as others have mentioned, the temple is really only about 'spiritual' oneupmanship: Proving to your MORmON neighbors and friends that you are way more MORmON than they are, but it's all just "too sacred to talk about" (fake LIES.) No-one on the inside can tell you what any of it really means. Anyone on the outside who can tell you what it means must be a Mason, and even then, whatever it means has no bearing on reality.

The temple is a useless hamster-wheel, that sucks vast amounts of resources away from real, live humans with actual need.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

We are secrets to each other

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MerrieMiss
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by MerrieMiss » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:25 pm

My experience mirrors Anon70’s fairly well. I thought I was the one with the problem and kept coming back to figure it out. I was going to ace this temple thing. The odd thing was that I’d always been very good at memorizing things, but I could never, ever get the words of the temple ceremony right. A stupor of thought came through every single time. Again, I thought I was stupid or unworthy, but I should have remembered how the spirit testifies of truth…

I did learn one thing in my temple experience. I never understood who the “man in the moon” was, you know, from nursery rhymes or stories or whatever. I couldn’t see it, I had no idea what it was. So one day I was in the temple and the creation was going on and I saw it! The man in the moon, right there in the temple on the screen. This is the only thing I ever learned in the temple.

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Random
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Random » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:34 pm

I went through the temple because I was going on a mission. I did it often during the week before I left for my mission, and as often as possible after. I did a lot of thinking about what the ceremony meant.

I did feel the pressure of being told, "Any who want to withdraw may do so now," because I knew it would be impossible to withdraw (social pressure, much?), but I didn't know what to expect.

The initiatory was no big deal for me. No one ever got close to my private parts. Every time I did that ordinance, the women seemed very willing to dab my hip and closer to my shoulder, instead of the parts they were referring to.

I was a strong believer. I hated the execution imitations and was relieved when they dropped those. My opinion was that if a true believer made a promise to God, why did they need to be threatened with their lives?

Over time, I figured out the symbolism of the hand/arm motions as it concerned praying.

This is what it seems to be to me: First, you cast out the devil/evil spirits (the example of Peter in the movie). Second, keeping the devils/evil spirits at bay (left arm), you come before God as a beggar (because there's no way we can repay him for what he does for us), willing to receive, as evidenced by the outstretched right hand.

Then, you use your right hand to symbolize Jesus' feet/foot because he has cast devils, darkness, and your sins and infirmities under his feet (symbolic of overcoming them for you), while with your left hand, you continue to symbolize the fact that you have come to ask God something, and to symbolize that you are willing to receive.

Then, because God is so much higher than us (we are in the telestial realm; he is in the highest celestial realm), we ask him three times to listen to us. It's a reminder that we are pretty low, here in our unredeemed state.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

Anon70
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Anon70 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:13 pm

MerrieMiss wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:25 pm
The odd thing was that I’d always been very good at memorizing things, but I could never, ever get the words of the temple ceremony right. A stupor of thought came through every single time. Again, I thought I was stupid or unworthy, but I should have remembered how the spirit testifies of truth…
This^ In my professional life I’ve needed to memorize lots of complicated “stuff” and it’s been no problem. It’s gotten to the point where I now feel anxiety if I’m asked to do a session.

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moksha
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by moksha » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:11 am

Reading these posts made me think how nice it would be if the Celestial room also had massage chairs, hot tubs, steam baths, and served baklava with Vietnamese iced coffee. Sit around and discussing philosophy and movies with J. Golden Kimball, Stirling R. Socrates, and A. Woody Allen. That would make Temple attendance a treat.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Just This Guy
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:05 am

jfro18 wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:10 pm
I was reading just a blurb about the similarities between the endowment ceremony and the Masonic ceremony Joseph learned just 6 weeks prior to his 'revelation' on the new endowment ceremony and am always struck at how apologists say the similarities are just the vehicle where the message is so different and carries so much more meaning and learning.

I only went to temple 3 times because I had such a bad experience during my first one (when you were still naked and the old man got a little too close to my naked crotch), but I just can't remember learning *anything* that was different than what you're taught in the basic Mormon creation narrative.

So I'm honestly wondering - did anyone really learn much new there or come to new understandings with every visit as so many will say on social media and in church talks?

That is VERY similar to my experience. Old guy touching way below the belt line creeped me out. Then the actual endowment, I came out thinking just how little was actually "new". Even on future visits, i never really felt I learned anything new, even when I was looking for stuff.

I think I have only been through the endowment about 10 times (4 of those were on my mission.) I think DW has only gone 3 times because she really disliked it. One advantage of living in West Virginia, the nearest temple is 2.5 hours away in DC, and if it is closed, it's 4 hours to Columbus or Philadelphia. Even when we were TBMs, we would make whatever excuses we could to get out of temple trips. I didn't like the time sink and DW didn't like the temple. It was until we were out that we really talked about it and I understood her issues and she was able to understand why she didn't like it.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Palerider
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Palerider » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:29 am

Random wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:34 pm
I went through the temple because I was going on a mission. I did it often during the week before I left for my mission, and as often as possible after. I did a lot of thinking about what the ceremony meant.

I did feel the pressure of being told, "Any who want to withdraw may do so now," because I knew it would be impossible to withdraw (social pressure, much?), but I didn't know what to expect.

The initiatory was no big deal for me. No one ever got close to my private parts. Every time I did that ordinance, the women seemed very willing to dab my hip and closer to my shoulder, instead of the parts they were referring to.

I was a strong believer. I hated the execution imitations and was relieved when they dropped those. My opinion was that if a true believer made a promise to God, why did they need to be threatened with their lives?

Over time, I figured out the symbolism of the hand/arm motions as it concerned praying.

This is what it seems to be to me: First, you cast out the devil/evil spirits (the example of Peter in the movie). Second, keeping the devils/evil spirits at bay (left arm), you come before God as a beggar (because there's no way we can repay him for what he does for us), willing to receive, as evidenced by the outstretched right hand.

Then, you use your right hand to symbolize Jesus' feet/foot because he has cast devils, darkness, and your sins and infirmities under his feet (symbolic of overcoming them for you), while with your left hand, you continue to symbolize the fact that you have come to ask God something, and to symbolize that you are willing to receive.

Then, because God is so much higher than us (we are in the telestial realm; he is in the highest celestial realm), we ask him three times to listen to us. It's a reminder that we are pretty low, here in our unredeemed state.
This is interesting.

I'm wondering if you came to these insights just through repetition of attending or did someone aid your understanding? It sounds as if you arrived at these perceptions on your own.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

lostinmiddlemormonism
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by lostinmiddlemormonism » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:43 am

How to sleep with my eyes open...

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Yobispo
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by Yobispo » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:51 am

I learned that I had no idea what I was involved in. In all honesty, I didn't make any covenants that night. I'm sure I did everything I was told, but I was in such a state of shock that I just did what I was told. No prep, parents who were mostly cultural mormons who also had no idea what was going on, and older brother who thrived on watching me in shock... bad experience.

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fetchface
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Re: What did you really learn from the temple ceremony?

Post by fetchface » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:30 am

I learned to say that something was meaningful to me when it really was just boring, and to think that there was something wrong with me because I didn't find value in God's greatest gift to mankind.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/

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