Book of Abraham

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Random
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Book of Abraham

Post by Random » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:27 am

So, I did a ton of research about JS and polygamy before I reached a decision about it. (A decision that doesn't match most people's conclusions on this board, but I'm okay with that.)

I did a little research about the Book of Mormon (courtesy of Col. Flagg on LDSFF), but feel no real need to believe it is a factual history (or that it was independently translated by JS), as the book speaks to my soul, and I can see the warnings (to the Churches who claim JS as their founder, in spite of their belief to the contrary) being spot on.

Now, enter the Book of Abraham. My biggest argument for it seems to be that Abraham on the sacrificial table is very much alive. Well, a day or two ago, I read something that said the funerary text is showing Isis coming back to life. Hm. :thinking:

So, I want you guys to throw all your evidence at me.

One piece of evidence that would be helpful is if there is an identical picture of a guy on a table with moving arms and legs from a real papyrus that was found intact.

Also, as I recall, JS translated some of the words, giving Egyptian (I think) pronunciations and their English equivalents. If anyone can tell me (or direct me to) those English words and the real Egyptian pronunciations, I'd appreciate it.

And that other facsimile, the one drawn in a circle. If anyone knows of any truth about that, I'd like to know that, too.

In other words, throw it all at me. I'm here to learn. (I'm going out of town for the weekend-friend's birthday-so I probably won't return to this thread until next week, but I will be back. :) )
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by fetchface » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:48 am

The thing about the Book of Abraham that I couldn't get past was Facsimile 3. Joseph Smith said that particular characters had particular meanings and they don't. His translation was dead wrong. If that doesn't phase you, nothing will.
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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by Random » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:52 am

Good start. I have to leave in a minute, but when I return, maybe I can research exactly what he said they meant vs what they really mean, unless someone here has the info handy. I'm looking for as much detailed info as anyone cares to post on this thread.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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fetchface
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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by fetchface » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:57 am

Mormon Infographics has a simple chart. http://www.mormoninfographics.com/2012/ ... mined.html

Edit:
One example:
Joseph Smith's translation: "King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head"
Actual translation of characters above head: "Isis the great, the god's mother"
Last edited by fetchface on Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Emower
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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by Emower » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:59 am

Oh man.
1db5b9aa583838540e00578b1464e9c58631e33113aba5416e6d897202a43196.jpg
1db5b9aa583838540e00578b1464e9c58631e33113aba5416e6d897202a43196.jpg (69.1 KiB) Viewed 874 times

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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by Emower » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:04 pm

Image

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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:13 pm

Google: Joseph Smith Egytain Grammar & Alphabet Papers
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ber-1835/1

From the grammar papers, it is clear that JS though he was directly translating from the papyri. He even has the symbol and his take on its meaning. His translation is consistent with a popular theory at the time that Egyptian is a highly condensed language where one symbol can mean a whole paragraph worth of text in English. The Rosetta Stone has been shown that idea to be completely wrong and his translation to be totally bogus.

As to the idea that there is a missing scroll, the papyri was a catalyst to other translations, this is a very good dissection and analysis of why those ideas don't hold any water.
https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... cs-part-1/

You can also look at Facsimile 1 and see the things he got wrong there. Example, you have figures 5 though 8. He lists them as idols to false gods when they are obviously canopic jars, a common part of Egyptian embalming and funerary rites. Also the names of the Gods that JS claims are never seen in any Egyptian literature.
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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by wtfluff » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:30 pm

Random wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:27 am
One piece of evidence that would be helpful is if there is an identical picture of a guy on a table with moving arms and legs from a real papyrus that was found intact.
Like this?
Image

Since all of the facsimiles are simply common Egyptian funerary texts, there are likely hundreds of versions of them.


Random wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:27 am
In other words, throw it all at me. I'm here to learn.
There are hundreds, if not thousands of places you can go to find this information. Even the church "essay" could likely answer your questions (remember to follow all the footnotes.)

Mormonthink: Offers "both sides" of the story, and is fairly concise.

CES Letter: again fairly concise.

Hundreds of youtube videos. Some of the best are probably Dan Vogel's if you have the hours to watch his, he really digs deep and will likely answer all your questions and many that you didn't know you had.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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hiding in plain sight
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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by hiding in plain sight » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:37 pm

Look here and scroll down to the middle for two examples of the same kind of picture with legs moving.

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... &start=273

Look here and also scroll half way down for another example.

https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/bookofabraham

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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by Hagoth » Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:03 pm

Random wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:27 am
One piece of evidence that would be helpful is if there is an identical picture of a guy on a table with moving arms and legs from a real papyrus that was found intact.
I'm not sure where the original papyri are, but William Budge included reproductions of several such scenes in his book The Mummy:

Image
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Hagoth
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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by Hagoth » Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:05 pm

Everything I have to say is in my annotation of the essay. Please read it and hit me with any questions or objections you come away with:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Logow ... 0qOhleGrdc
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by jfro18 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:58 am

Read Hagoth's essay - that's really all you'll need to know honestly, but a few other things I find fascinating:

1. It appears that Joseph Smith had facsimile 3 altered to cut the snout off of Anubis so it would be easier to call the figure a slave as opposed to an Egyptian god:

Image

2. If you look at the manuscripts you can see that Joseph was translating the papyrus around Facsimile 1, which matches up with Joseph telling us in the BoA to refer to the figures as proof of the event.

3. There is no long/lost scroll due to math, and the catalyst theory is off the table once you read Abraham 1:12-14

The Book of Abraham is a legitimate smoking gun against Joseph Smith's abilities just as the Book of Mormon would be if we had the "gold plates" to compare to.

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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by Corsair » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:34 am

Random wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:27 am
One piece of evidence that would be helpful is if there is an identical picture of a guy on a table with moving arms and legs from a real papyrus that was found intact.
Here's the problem:

Image

This is a photo of the actual papyri. Notice how much is missing and how much Joseph Smith would have had to infer. Assuming that the guy on the table is alive is a huge stretch and we certainly don't have the head of the standing priest. We don't actually know what the figure on the table was doing with his hands. He could have been high fiving that priest and flashing a gang sign as far as we can tell. There is a lot the is assumed about some critical pieces in this facsimile.

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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by Hagoth » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:04 pm

Corsair wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:34 am
We don't actually know what the figure on the table was doing with his hands.
He almost certainly had one hand raised, as in this image from HIPS's link (note legs also). The second hand was very likely Joseph Smith's misinterpretation of the tips of the bird's feathers as fingers.
Image
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by jfro18 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:52 pm

Corsair wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:34 am
Here's the problem:

Image

This is a photo of the actual papyri. Notice how much is missing and how much Joseph Smith would have had to infer. Assuming that the guy on the table is alive is a huge stretch and we certainly don't have the head of the standing priest. We don't actually know what the figure on the table was doing with his hands. He could have been high fiving that priest and flashing a gang sign as far as we can tell. There is a lot the is assumed about some critical pieces in this facsimile.
I read an interesting write-up about this before they said that even if you are to believe the guy on the table is alive, it's because his body is being reanimated.

So even if you want to pretend the body is alive, the other papyri that have this feature are because the body is being resurrected - not sacrificed.

In other words, even if you believe that is the case here it doesn't help Joseph Smith. This is a theme we see from a lot of apologetic works on Joseph Smith's errors as prophet - even when you give the benefit of the doubt to what they say, it doesn't really help Joseph once it's in proper context.

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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by Hagoth » Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:20 pm

Another thing Joseph missed because it was missing from his papyrus: the guy on the table probably had a boner. I'm not entirely certain about the details of the story but Osiris is the character on the table and he's impregnating Isis in the form of a bird. That's just how the Egyptians rolled.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by jfro18 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:09 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:20 pm
Another thing Joseph missed because it was missing from his papyrus: the guy on the table probably had a boner. I'm not entirely certain about the details of the story but Osiris is the character on the table and he's impregnating Isis in the form of a bird. That's just how the Egyptians rolled.
Which leads to the greatest mistranslation of facsimile 2:

joseph smith: God, sitting upon his throne
Actual meaning: Min, the pagan god of fertility/sex sitting with an erect penis

So very very great

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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by wtfluff » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:07 pm

Maybe we should mention that there is basically no archaeological evidence that proves anything about Abraham, and it's likely the dude is not a credible historical figure? (As I understand it...)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by Hagoth » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:16 am

I would say the only potential real-world evidence for the Book of Abraham is the word Olishem. Some apologists consider it the BoA's NHM, but when you look closely at it things fall apart fast. Apologists say the BoA's Plain of Olishem is the same place as the ancient town of Ulisim because the words sound kinda similar. There are a number of problems with this.

1- Ulisum is in Syria. The BoA clearly states that Olishem is in Ur. The two places are 1600 km apart. The apologetic response is to do the same thing they did with the Hill Cumorah; they invented another Ur that would be conveniently close to Ulisim, if it could actually be located.

2- The BoA says Olishem is in the land of the Chaldeans but there were no Chaldeans until long after Abraham's time. Even the words Ur and Chaldea are later English derivatives of Hebrew.

3- Abraham has Egyptian priests performing human sacrifices to unknown non-Egyptian gods thousands of kilometers from Egypt. Those gods are shown in Facsimile 1 and are clearly canopic jars in the from of known Egyptian gods that Joseph labeled incorrectly because he had no idea what they were.

4- Olishem is clearly one of Joseph Smith's made up words that he contrived while he was learning Hebrew. It's a conflation of the Hebrew words olah and shem, which means basically "name of a place of sacrifice."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Book of Abraham

Post by Random » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:36 am

Wow! Ask and you shall receive! (I couldn't wait until I got home so here I am.) I haven't read the links, but I will when I get home. Thank you so much. I knew if anyone could and would help me, you guys would.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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