New handbook of instructions

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Angel
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New handbook of instructions

Post by Angel » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:28 pm

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CmZKhP ... _EuEc/view

See above link, what does everyone think of it?
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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blazerb
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by blazerb » Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:26 pm

It still says that being in a same-sex marriage is apostasy. I think the church is being run in a haphazard way while pretending to be organized.

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:28 pm

I immediately flipped to the section on garments and it looks like it says members are to use the spirit to determine proper wear. Is that different from earlier versions?

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Palerider
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by Palerider » Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:38 pm

I noticed a section on youth interviews that states a youth may invite a parent to be present in the interview if they desire.

This is a change from having a parent sit outside the door.

Hope every parent encourages their kid to take advantage of that one.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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jfro18
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by jfro18 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:39 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:28 pm
I immediately flipped to the section on garments and it looks like it says members are to use the spirit to determine proper wear. Is that different from earlier versions?
I don't think it's any different -- in fact it references reading the temple recommend question about wearing them, so unless that gets watered down I think they're just saying "proper wear" meaning covering them up, etc.

It would be so nice if they'd drop the garments in everyday wear, but I don't think they're doing to any time soon.

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Random
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by Random » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:02 pm

So the "children of gay parents" policy that was changed was not changed? So, why all the hype about a change in the policy? A new revelation that undid the old revelation?

Also, under magnitude: "The number of persons who are aware of the transgression also affects its seriousness."
6.10.6.4

I wonder why they said that?
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
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Angel
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by Angel » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:47 pm

So, the new handbook is pretty much the same as the old one? :roll:
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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jfro18
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by jfro18 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:26 pm

Random wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:02 pm
So the "children of gay parents" policy that was changed was not changed? So, why all the hype about a change in the policy? A new revelation that undid the old revelation?
So there have been a few responses that they are still editing sections of it, which makes no sense given that they officially released this, but you'd have to believe that this will change given that it was called revelation.
Random wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:02 pm
Also, under magnitude: "The number of persons who are aware of the transgression also affects its seriousness."
6.10.6.4

I wonder why they said that?
This one is amazing- this is the Mormon version of 'What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.' I seriously have no idea why the number of people that know about a horrible transgression matters to the seriousness of it and this legalistic phrasing is incredibly off-putting.

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Random
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by Random » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:33 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:26 pm
So there have been a few responses that they are still editing sections of it, which makes no sense given that they officially released this, but you'd have to believe that this will change given that it was called revelation.
Ditto. That makes zero sense.
This one is amazing- this is the Mormon version of 'What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.' I seriously have no idea why the number of people that know about a horrible transgression matters to the seriousness of it and this legalistic phrasing is incredibly off-putting.
Not only off-putting, but it gives credence to all of the stuff going on online about perpetrators being promoted up the ranks.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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nibbler
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by nibbler » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:56 am

jfro18 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:26 pm
So there have been a few responses that they are still editing sections of it, which makes no sense given that they officially released this, but you'd have to believe that this will change given that it was called revelation.
That is an interesting observation. I didn't think they officially released handbook 1 anymore, favoring the ever-changing, nebulous online version. It's been that way since what, 2010-ish? This looks like an official cut of the handbook. If massive updates were in the works, you'd think they'd wait a little longer to do their once a decade official cut.

One thing to point out. The version is from May 2019. It wouldn't include the recent updates from August.

Maybe this is an indication that there will be more periodic official cuts for leaders in developing nations that don't have ready access to the online version.
Random wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:02 pm
Also, under magnitude: "The number of persons who are aware of the transgression also affects its seriousness."
6.10.6.4

I wonder why they said that?
It fits right in with all the other cultural stuff where it's all about appearances. I'll take a stab at a serious answer.

If everyone in the ward is aware of the sin and they see that the sinner isn't clearly punished (disfellowshipped, excommunicated, made to wear a scarlet letter, etc.) that might send the signal that there are no repercussions for sinning. Someone got away with one. We can't have that. The more people that know about the sin, the more people have to know about the punishment rendered.

Plus, if it was a leader it sets up an Alma/Corianton scenario. People saw the leader behaving badly and now the flock has been led astray. A leader behaving bad in public could also gives the church a black eye. Punishment in that scenario is probably more to protect the image of the church than to "help" the sinner.

Just guesses.
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
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foolmeonce
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by foolmeonce » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:05 am

Random wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:33 pm
jfro18 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:26 pm
So there have been a few responses that they are still editing sections of it, which makes no sense given that they officially released this, but you'd have to believe that this will change given that it was called revelation.
Ditto. That makes zero sense.
This one is amazing- this is the Mormon version of 'What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.' I seriously have no idea why the number of people that know about a horrible transgression matters to the seriousness of it and this legalistic phrasing is incredibly off-putting.
Not only off-putting, but it gives credence to all of the stuff going on online about perpetrators being promoted up the ranks.
Dear COJCOLDS, the phrase you're looking for is "impacted by." Please replace "aware of" to "impacted by." It's a much better weasel phrase because it's less blatently a weasel phrase, but gives you the same enforcement flexibility. See what I did there? I'll be happy to help you out more for some tithing reimbursements.
Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.

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Random
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by Random » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:37 pm

Nibbler, your guesses make sense.
Please replace "aware of" to "impacted by."
Foolmeonce, that would certainly be less obvious.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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2bizE
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by 2bizE » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:01 pm

nibbler wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:56 am
Random wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:02 pm
Also, under magnitude: "The number of persons who are aware of the transgression also affects its seriousness."
6.10.6.4

I wonder why they said that?
It fits right in with all the other cultural stuff where it's all about appearances. I'll take a stab at a serious answer.

If everyone in the ward is aware of the sin and they see that the sinner isn't clearly punished (disfellowshipped, excommunicated, made to wear a scarlet letter, etc.) that might send the signal that there are no repercussions for sinning. Someone got away with one. We can't have that. The more people that know about the sin, the more people have to know about the punishment rendered.

Plus, if it was a leader it sets up an Alma/Corianton scenario. People saw the leader behaving badly and now the flock has been led astray. A leader behaving bad in public could also gives the church a black eye. Punishment in that scenario is probably more to protect the image of the church than to "help" the sinner.

Just guesses.
So...like Joseph Bishop. We can’t have someone go unpunished.
~2bizE

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foolmeonce
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by foolmeonce » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:26 pm

2bizE wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:01 pm
nibbler wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:56 am
Random wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:02 pm
Also, under magnitude: "The number of persons who are aware of the transgression also affects its seriousness."
6.10.6.4

I wonder why they said that?
It fits right in with all the other cultural stuff where it's all about appearances. I'll take a stab at a serious answer.

If everyone in the ward is aware of the sin and they see that the sinner isn't clearly punished (disfellowshipped, excommunicated, made to wear a scarlet letter, etc.) that might send the signal that there are no repercussions for sinning. Someone got away with one. We can't have that. The more people that know about the sin, the more people have to know about the punishment rendered.

Plus, if it was a leader it sets up an Alma/Corianton scenario. People saw the leader behaving badly and now the flock has been led astray. A leader behaving bad in public could also gives the church a black eye. Punishment in that scenario is probably more to protect the image of the church than to "help" the sinner.

Just guesses.
So...like Joseph Bishop. We can’t have someone go unpunished.
So I've been completely inactive since 2016 and let's just say that if I were to sign up to renew my recommend today, I'd being saying no to a lot of the worthiness questions right now. Or put another way, I'm living a life cleaner than Joe Smith did, but less clean than his church now mandates.

If I suddenly changed my ways, started coming back to church, and completely stopped all of the naughty stuff I've been doing, would I go through the same discipline program as someone who sinned a little but remained active? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. They'd be so happy to get an apostate back that I wouldn't even get a court.
Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.

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foolmeonce
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by foolmeonce » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:31 pm

foolmeonce wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:26 pm
So I've been completely inactive since 2016 and let's just say that if I were to sign up to renew my recommend today, I'd being saying no to a lot of the worthiness questions right now. Or put another way, I'm living a life cleaner than Joe Smith did, but less clean than his church now mandates.

If I suddenly changed my ways, started coming back to church, and completely stopped all of the naughty stuff I've been doing, would I go through the same discipline program as someone who sinned a little but remained active? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. They'd be so happy to get an apostate back that I wouldn't even get a court.
[/quote]

With the caveat that in this alternate and scary universe, no one in the ward knows the bad stuff that I've been doing. If I start telling people beyond the bishop about my evil ways then it's off to the Court of Love with me.

I've never been in a bishopric, but I've always kind of thought that's how it happens from a practical perspective, and it's always bothered me. At least now they have the hypocrisy codified.
Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.

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Corsair
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by Corsair » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:05 pm

So, does this mean that the maligned November 2015 policy is back on the books? Was the whole fanfare of easing up on it last April just for show? Does anyone else feel like this makes LDS policy more slippery than ever?

When I was a ward clerk I prided myself be reading Handbook 1 and being the resident expert in my bishopric. I was probably annoying at times. But now these changes are slipping in and out almost like the LDS church is embarrassed by them and deeply prefers that outsiders are simply caught off guard by changes and don't notice them. I'm also wondering if Reddit is just tired of the outrage and simply sees this move as yet another "of course they did that dumb thing." I have been wondering if it will be the outrage firestorm that late 2015 turned into.

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blazerb
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by blazerb » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:14 am

Corsair wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:05 pm
So, does this mean that the maligned November 2015 policy is back on the books? Was the whole fanfare of easing up on it last April just for show? Does anyone else feel like this makes LDS policy more slippery than ever?

When I was a ward clerk I prided myself be reading Handbook 1 and being the resident expert in my bishopric. I was probably annoying at times. But now these changes are slipping in and out almost like the LDS church is embarrassed by them and deeply prefers that outsiders are simply caught off guard by changes and don't notice them. I'm also wondering if Reddit is just tired of the outrage and simply sees this move as yet another "of course they did that dumb thing." I have been wondering if it will be the outrage firestorm that late 2015 turned into.
I think the policy is no longer in force, from the Q15's perspective. I would not be surprised to find out that the Q15 don't know that the PoX has not been removed from the handbook. Here is my, purely speculative, scenario. They decide that the November policy has to change. They don't talk about this with anyone below them because the Q15 have to keep it secret until they decide it should not be secret. Oaks reveals the change to great media fanfare just before the April conference. However, no one in the Q15 has told anyone that the handbook needs to change. No one asks because "steadying the ark." So, the church ends up with a policy that is no longer in place but still shows up in the handbook.

New bishops and branch presidents are probably making mistakes, but maybe fewer than would be expected. They don't really want to deal with courts of love. Speaking from experience, they suck. Local leaders will avoid them unless they are sticklers or forced to hold them by the upper leadership. If the rumors are correct that excommunications have to be approved by higher leaders, then the chances of errors are even lower. Our leaders will learn that the handbook is not to be consulted because it is not up to date.

Now that there's a bunch of people pointing out the error, the Q15 have probably told someone to fix it, finally. It will soon be edited online. The problem goes down the memory hole. And angry apostates are left waiting for the next disaster to occur.

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jfro18
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by jfro18 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:44 am

blazerb wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:14 am

Now that there's a bunch of people pointing out the error, the Q15 have probably told someone to fix it, finally. It will soon be edited online. The problem goes down the memory hole. And angry apostates are left waiting for the next disaster to occur.
This is why I am not thinking much about this - it will get edited out because they made too much PR in the announcement to try and pretend it can stay in the handbook.

It's curious that it was left there considering the temple wedding stuff was changed, but I think the more energy people put into screaming about this from the rooftops (I know I wanted to) will end up making you look that much bitter when the church quietly changes it online and pretends it was never an issue in the first place.

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Just This Guy
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:53 am

Based on my knowledge of publishing, the book was likely finalized and approved weeks before it went to press in May. So the announcement to remove the POX was likely done after the book was sent to the printing office.

There are several ways to look at this.

This could be a late breaking revelation that came too late to pull the printing order. Bad timing on God's part.
If the retraction to the PoX was planned, then someone forgot to pass the word to the printing office, so what does that say about the communication in the church?
Did the church put out an admendment to the updated CHI1 to correct the sections on the PoX? If not, again it could be a communication problem, or someone, somewhere, is trying to keep it on the books.

One question is is this still there today in the online version? Anyone have leadership access privileges that could check what they have now?
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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nibbler
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Re: New handbook of instructions

Post by nibbler » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:13 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:53 am
Based on my knowledge of publishing, the book was likely finalized and approved weeks before it went to press in May. So the announcement to remove the POX was likely done after the book was sent to the printing office.
I think most came to a similar conclusion with the May updates omitting changing the POX. The more recent stink was raised after updates to CH1 in August, aka a few weeks ago.

People were understanding of how changes announced in April may not have made it into the April updates but are left wondering what the excuse is for the changes to not have been included in the August updates.
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
– Anais Nin

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