Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:37 am

Keewon wrote:
Mormorrisey wrote:Just for those who are interested, here's a taste of what Givens is going to be arguing in his forthcoming book:

https://faithmatters.org/what-is-the-book-of-abraham/
I just skimmed the front page, and had a sense of deja vu about an article written by Carl Sagan about the writings of Russian grand pseudo-scientist Immanuel Velikovsky. Velikovsky's writings touched on theories in physics, linguistics, archaeology, anthropology and on and on as he tried to explain away the miracles of the Old Testament. Paraphrasing Sagan, anyone well versed in any of those areas, say physics, was likely to say "What V has to say physics is absolute BS, but what he says about the other fields sounds quite interesting." IOW, if you know enough about a field to have a rational opinion you could tell he was just blowing smoke as he went along, but if not he could sound rather engaging.

The same feels true about Givans. He will make grand announcements that touch on evolution, astrophysics, and on and on, but anything I happen to have more than a passing acquaintance with I can tell he's pulling arguments out of the air. Here's a taste:
Givans wrote:The space-time foundations in which our senses are grounded are only a slice of reality; many physicists now argue that there may be as many as eleven dimensions to reality—only four of which are accessible to our minds and senses. Newton’s universe, once stable, coherent, and predictable, has become foreign, indecipherable, and saturated in mystery and paradox.
Wow. Take that, Skeptic. If space-time doesn't redeem JS's charade, I don't know what will. /s

As I've said elsewhere, I'm pretty sure that if science in any way supported their claims, science would be the Church's best friend. The fact that the apologists have to spin in this way is another line of evidence that it does not.
Givens falls back on his flowery prose and when that fails he throws in a beautiful poem or two from someone else to stoke up that heartsell. He knows his audience well.

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Corsair » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:27 am

Keewon wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:34 am
Givans wrote:The space-time foundations in which our senses are grounded are only a slice of reality; many physicists now argue that there may be as many as eleven dimensions to reality—only four of which are accessible to our minds and senses. Newton’s universe, once stable, coherent, and predictable, has become foreign, indecipherable, and saturated in mystery and paradox.
Wow. Take that, Skeptic. If space-time doesn't redeem JS's charade, I don't know what will. /s

As I've said elsewhere, I'm pretty sure that if science in any way supported their claims, science would be the Church's best friend. The fact that the apologists have to spin in this way is another line of evidence that it does not.
Givens is falling back on physics that he truly does not understand to try and make a point. This kind of argument does not suddenly make the LDS church true. It doesn't make any other belief system true or false either. It should make the church a bit more humble about people who want to take a different path. The number of dimensions in space time does not provide a moral imperative for us to spend our Sundays at Russell Nelson's favorite church and avoid coffee. It has nothing to say about whether or not we give 10% of our income to the LDS church or sanction any form of marriage. The Book of Abraham simply fails on the material claims that Joseph Smith made about its origins.

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:15 pm

Wow that "faith matters" site is quite a goldmine. I especially enjoy the unsensored comments on many of the articles.

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Corsair » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:07 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:15 pm
Wow that "faith matters" site is quite a goldmine. I especially enjoy the unsensored comments on many of the articles.
Right. I read a few of the comments and it seems like the unbelievers are more than represented among the readers of this website. Believers would be challenged by it and unbelievers are mildly annoyed without being swayed.

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Hagoth » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:25 pm

Corsair wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:27 am
Givens is falling back on physics that he truly does not understand to try and make a point. This kind of argument does not suddenly make the LDS church true. It doesn't make any other belief system true or false either.
He's doing the same thing new age gurus do. Gosh, look how weird physics is. If the universe is so weird then the weird stuff I'm telling you must be true, 'cause entanglement?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Hagoth » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:31 pm

Here's the trajectory I see Givens eventually taking, considering the way he's leveraging biblical pseudepigrapha:

Paul didn't actually write many of the Pauline epistles, but don't write them off as phony, after all they're still scripture. We still love and respect them as the word of God. So don't worry about where Joseph got the words that make up the Book of Abraham. The actual source is entirely inconsequential. Even if all evidence points to Joseph Smith pulling it out of his ass, it's still scripture so we should love and respect it as the word of God.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Emower » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:59 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:25 pm
Corsair wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:27 am
Givens is falling back on physics that he truly does not understand to try and make a point. This kind of argument does not suddenly make the LDS church true. It doesn't make any other belief system true or false either.
He's doing the same thing new age gurus do. Gosh, look how weird physics is. If the universe is so weird then the weird stuff I'm telling you must be true, 'cause entanglement?
I think the redefinition of truth is the logical endgame here, and that's where givens and others will get into trouble with president oaks, when the time comes.

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Hagoth » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:17 am

Emower wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:59 am
I think the redefinition of truth is the logical endgame here, and that's where givens and others will get into trouble with president oaks, when the time comes.
This will be interesting to watch. I kind of expect, however, that no prophet will directly address Givens' flavor of apologetics. It will exist in a world all its own, as long as it keeps butts in pews and checks in tithing envelopes and healthy sales at Deseret Books. If fact, I wonder if we'll ever see a member of the Q15 ever address apologetics again. Holland tried a few times but I don't think it worked well for him. They'll let lesser GAs like Callister take the hits for them while they remain aloof in the nebulous realm of "if you're righteous you will just trust and believe."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:45 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:17 am
Emower wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:59 am
I think the redefinition of truth is the logical endgame here, and that's where givens and others will get into trouble with president oaks, when the time comes.
This will be interesting to watch. I kind of expect, however, that no prophet will directly address Givens' flavor of apologetics. It will exist in a world all its own, as long as it keeps butts in pews and checks in tithing envelopes and healthy sales at Deseret Books. If fact, I wonder if we'll ever see a member of the Q15 ever address apologetics again. Holland tried a few times but I don't think it worked well for him. They'll let lesser GAs like Callister take the hits for them while they remain aloof in the nebulous realm of "if you're righteous you will just trust and believe."
What about Gong? He seems intelligent enough. But maybe he knows the answer already and the duties of the holy Apostleship will strip him of any intelligence. Sort of like a spiritual lobotomy!
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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Corsair » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:13 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:45 pm
What about Gong? He seems intelligent enough. But maybe he knows the answer already and the duties of the holy Apostleship will strip him of any intelligence. Sort of like a spiritual lobotomy!
It would be very interesting to get Gong into a Mormon Stories interview and get a solid view of his beliefs and testimony. But we all know how that will simply never happen. The fact that Elder Gong was inducted into the Q12 means that he has a long history of loyalty to the LDS church. He either truly believes, or his testimony is enough to make him balance out any concerns.

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Hagoth » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:03 am

The induction into the Q12 centers on one essential question: Is he church-broke?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:22 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:03 am
The induction into the Q12 centers on one essential question: Is he church-broke?
What qualities and attributes does he bring to the leadership team?

He’s an intelligent guy but that’s irrelevant in terms of being an apostle. They spout so much 3rd grade level drivel that his intelligence isn’t going to be showcased.

I can only think of two things. He’s needed for instructing the apostles on real world events as we saw with the leaked Packer and Oaks videos.

Or he was selected because he’s Asian.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Hagoth » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:28 am

Church leadership is one of those jobs that could be done more efficiently by robots. All you need is a database of statements made by previous leaders and an algorithm that strings them together into semi-coherent 20 minute compilations.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:54 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:28 am
Church leadership is one of those jobs that could be done more efficiently by robots. All you need is a database of statements made by previous leaders and an algorithm that strings them together into semi-coherent 20 minute compilations.
That explains Bednar. He must be the prototype apostlebot.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Emower » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:02 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:54 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:28 am
Church leadership is one of those jobs that could be done more efficiently by robots. All you need is a database of statements made by previous leaders and an algorithm that strings them together into semi-coherent 20 minute compilations.
That explains Bednar. He must be the prototype apostlebot.

Hmmmmmmm :ugeek: :ugeek: Suggestion...........Or expxlanation for what is going on in the church the last 20 years?

Forget Austin Powers' fembots, Apostlebots! Instead of bullets coming out of nipples, it could be consecrated oil coming out......Eh, never mind.

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Apologeticsislying » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:33 am

I've always seen Givens as one of the more clever arguers for Mormonism. I don't find him at all persuasive though. I think the reason he is jumping into this arena is that it actually is one of the bigger problems people in the church have and that causes them to leave.

And I think he sees and realizes that the brethren are simply no longer in a position of persuasive authority with the membership anymore. In the last few years, no matter what they have said it has backfired, and so much of what they say is just no longer credible in far too many eyes. Better for them to pull PR stunts and gimmicks than to actually try to teach their own history. Let the apologists do that.

When I was a kid in the church this simply could not have happened. Whenever and no matter what kind of issues and problems arose, the brethren were always the ones to turn to. Now, we never hear from them on the crucial issues. They have turned over their mantle of authority over to the professors. And the professors are simply out of their league. It's no wonder so many are seeing the entire church is now out of its league. The future looks interesting from the outside point of view.
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Palerider » Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:33 am

Apologeticsislying wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:33 am

When I was a kid in the church this simply could not have happened. Whenever and no matter what kind of issues and problems arose, the brethren were always the ones to turn to. Now, we never hear from them on the crucial issues. They have turned over their mantle of authority over to the professors. And the professors are simply out of their league.
Right! The Brethren don't want to talk about this stuff. It makes them look dumb. So they avoid it, which means they're AFRAID. Fear is the antithesis of faith.

Whenever you have the Brethren shifting their responsibility to "experts" who know what they're talking about, it means the Brethren don't know how to defend the church themselves. It's like they're saying, "We're just business men....we don't know all this church stuff!" So the great revelators of our time, the men who commune with Jehovah, are in reality a nerdy bunch of MBAs who tell emotional stories and memorized platitudes in General Conference. None of which proves the church is true by the way.

How do you define "Soothsayers"???

This all goes in direct opposition to the admonishment of the Apostle Peter (a real Apostle by the way) who said:

1 Peter 3:15
"But sanctify the LORD God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear..."

Somehow I think Peter would be more than ready to answer the questions of members who didn't understand possible discrepancies in the Gospel story. Isn't that what a "Special Witness of Christ" would entail???
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Apologeticsislying » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:53 am

Yes, but these gentlemen have something that even Apostle Peter didn't. They have a special witness of the NAME of Jesus, all Peter had was a couple meals and talks and traveling around with Jesus as part of his life's experience of truth and reality. Hardly on the same caliber of the power today's leaders have. :roll:
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by jfro18 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:05 pm

It's crazy to look at where apologists keep moving as the floor is falling out from beneath their feet.

None of these explanations are done out of logic or scholarship - they're done out of necessity to try and keep these writings plausible as from God to members who are starting to figure it all out.

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Re: Terryl Givens steps into the BoA ring

Post by Apologeticsislying » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:02 pm

Years ago we were hashing out what the internet was going to do to the church. Most of us took an optimistic bent and said when the truth flows out of our websites, the world is gonna sit up and take notice. My goodness the church has been in full reverse mode now for over a flippin decade! And apologetics? FAIR is about all there is and it has done more damage than help because anyone who asked questions was lambasted immediately as enemies. Just weird of them to do that. But then again, when you are on defense you view everyone as your enemy. This paranoia is starting to cost them dearly. The problem is FAIR put on so much information of so many problems that it overwhelmed everyone, everyone including myself. We knew there were going to be a few problems that we could mop up in just a few pages. But when the questions and ideas kept coming out, and THEN how the official church was handling things, and what they were saying, we just couldn't keep up with it all.
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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