Mayan Nephites

[græy]

So, this past week DW and I took a much needed vacation (Caribbean cruise!), leaving the kids at home with grandparents. Preparing for the trip led to some interesting events including when DW noticed for the first time that I wasn't wearing my garment top (and haven't been for around 3 years at this point, but that may be another discussion).

As part of our trip we toured through some expansive Mayan ruins. I spent a few weeks before the trip reading up on Mayan culture and history, and I took some time to replay Dr. Coe's MS interview. Good stuff.

On our return we were telling my parents about the trip. I let them know that the ruins were the real highlight for me, giving them a brief description of the city we spent some time in. My mother asked what kinds of links we saw to the BoM. I laughed a little bit and simply said "None."

She looked a bit confused so I went on to explain that we have a good idea who the Mayan people were. We can read large parts of the few texts we have today, we understand a great deal about their theology, their societal structures, the rituals. We also have some pretty good guesses as to what caused their downfall between 800-1200AD.

I told her that what we know of the Maya does not describe a BoM people and the people described in the BoM are not the Maya. Theology, zoology, herbology, linguistics, society and government structure, there just isn't any overlap between what is described in BoM and what we know of the Maya.

She got a confused look on her face again and said "But I thought the Nephites and Lamanites were the direct ancestors of all native people in America."

I told her that is what the church used to teach, but because there is literally zero archaeological evidence of the Nephites even the scriptures themselves now say the Nephites/Lamanaites were only among native ancestors. In short, we have no idea who the Nephites were or where they might have lived despite all the teachings to the contrary over the last 180 years.

And that is where the conversation ended, never to be brought up again. Good times!

[Red Ryder]

Isn’t it wonderful when you can actually use your intellect and learn about new things outside the limited confines of Mormonism?

The Mayan ancestors of today probably hate being tied to Lamanites! Wait.....

Adding the word “among” is a great example of the institutional dishonesty the church continues to deploy in the quest to shift the narrative to match the lack of evidence.

Does the wife pack garments on the vacations?

That’s the true test of loyalty to the cult.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

With the garment top thing, for the last 3 years were you sneaking the top on before bed?

If that's the case, it's what I do too.

[græy]

Isn’t it wonderful when you can actually use your intellect and learn about new things outside the limited confines of Mormonism?

It is!

With the garment top thing, for the last 3 years were you sneaking the top on before bed?

If that's the case, it's what I do too.

Does the wife pack garments on the vacations?

That’s the true test of loyalty to the cult.

I usually get dressed/undressed in the walk-in closet off of our master bathroom, so for the past three years, yes I just put my G-top back on before going to bed. I have always worn a Hanes white undershirt under my real shirt anyway, so no one could tell just by looking. About 3 months ago I mowed our lawn with only a single t-shirt on and DW, noticing the sweat lines, came up behind me and lifted the shirt to see there were no Gs. But she must have just assumed I was treating it the same as working out because she never said anything. I don't know what it says about our relationship, but other than that one day, DW hasn't noticed the difference in 3+ years.

And, RR, yes she did wear Gs throughout the trip unless she was wearing her swimsuit, which wasn't a lot. Sunday was spent at sea on the cruise ship. I enjoyed a mostly church-free weekend while she took 45 minutes to read scriptures that morning.

[wtfluff]

I had a very similar conversation with my FIL while wandering around the ruins at Tulum. This was due to a comment by the tour-guide on the bus-ride there.

FIL: "These people didn't come from the Middle-East?"
Fluffy: "I know what you're thinking, but there is absolutely no evidence that these people came from the Middle-East. In fact, DNA evidence shows that they came from Asia."
FIL: [Change subject of conversation to how cool modern DNA testing is...]

And my FIL isn't even a True™ Believer.

[RubinHighlander]

Noice!

As Fluff mentioned above, I would have also thrown into the last of that conversation the DNA evidence showing no Jewish descendants in any of the native peoples in N. and S. America.

[Hagoth]

But how could those Mormon-centric travel agencies even consider giving tours of Book of Mormon sites if those sites don't actually exist?

I'm kind of fascinated by how many Mormons just assume there is abundant archaeological evidence for the BoM. This is probably the real value of apologetics, regardless of what the apologists are actually writing (which never gets read by 99.99% of members). I guess they see the FARMS books on the shelf at Deseret Book and imagine that they're chock-full of empirical yumminess. Sheer volume is more important than specific content.

I like the idea of publishing an expensive series of books called Archaeological Evidence for the Book of Mormon. They would work just fine if the pages were completely blank, but better would be to fill them with hundreds upon hundreds of pages of extremely tedious and verbose computer generated text about ancient America with occasional photos that have captions like "Waters of Mormon" and "Rameumptum." They would go right on the shelf and never be read, but would serve the same purpose as if they actually contained substantive evidence.

[Ghost]

If only the Book of Mormon revealed whether they really sacrificed the winners or the losers (or neither) at the end of a Maya ball game.

[moksha]

Graey, here is a well researched and better alternative to a Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon. Poster Darth J proposed that the Italian Penninsula had all the right makings for the Book of Mormon story to have taken place. Thank goodness someone has come up with fruitful results.

Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... =1&t=13858

[græy]

Graey, here is a well researched and better alternative to a Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon. Poster Darth J proposed that the Italian Penninsula had all the right makings for the Book of Mormon story to have taken place. Thank goodness someone has come up with fruitful results.

It fits too well! Satan must be trying to trick us with this one.