Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

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jfro18
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by jfro18 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:44 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:34 am
The transcript is here: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/russell- ... -laws-god/

Good thing President Nelson is less than a bigot than God, without his supplication God never would have decided to change that policy. You’re my hero President Nelson!!!
One thing I noticed when reading this yesterday is how Nelson throws God under the bus to make himself look more sympathetic:

"That means we are commanded to teach truth in doing so sometimes were accused of being uncaring as we teach the father's requirements for exaltation in celestial kingdom."

So basically they are the victims here- God's messengers who only get criticized for being awful when in reality it's just God who sucks at this.

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deacon blues
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by deacon blues » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:01 am

If a prophet made a mistake would he say, "I made a mistake?" It's a humility test, people. :o
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1smartdodog
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by 1smartdodog » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:19 am

Quote "Divine law is incontrovertible! The same can be said of the law of gravity, and the laws of foil and lift that allow airplanes to fly. Each is an absolute truth. Doctors or pilots do not have the power to change those laws, but their understanding of them safeguards lives."

This jumped out at me. Really divine law is the same as the law of gravity? I get his point that it is suppose to be unchangeable and constant. But really how do you swallow this. Divine law in Mormonism is always in flux. Ideas change . The church adapts whether they want to admit it or not. If divine law was unchangeable I would have three wives.

To compare the supposed laws the church sets, to the scientific laws like gravity is absurd. There is absolutely nothing anyone can do to change gravity, but on a whim they can change a policy on sexual behavior, or any number of supposed divine laws. Besides it is only divine because they say so. I can't run an experiment to test their divine laws. I may produce some anecdotal evidence to support them, but nothing that can be replicated.

I run into this often with TBM types. They always conflate the imperical with the anecdotal as if they are the same.
“Five percent of the people think; ten percent of the people think they think; and the other eighty-five percent would rather die than think.”
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Just This Guy
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:22 am

consiglieri wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:28 am
The fourth truth is about how God inspired the policy in the first place, but after President Nelson saw all the pain it was causing, he went back to God and pleaded with him to change it and God allowed him to do so.
So RMN is now our intercessor before god in our behalf? How Catholic of him. Should we just start calling RMN "Mary" and be done with it?
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Yobispo
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by Yobispo » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:30 am

1smartdodog wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:19 am
Quote "Divine law is incontrovertible! The same can be said of the law of gravity, and the laws of foil and lift that allow airplanes to fly. Each is an absolute truth. Doctors or pilots do not have the power to change those laws, but their understanding of them safeguards lives."

This jumped out at me.
Jumped out at me, too, as an attempt to horn in on Dieter's fan base.

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Palerider
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by Palerider » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:57 am

jfro18 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:44 am

One thing I noticed when reading this yesterday is how Nelson throws God under the bus to make himself look more sympathetic:

"That means we are commanded to teach truth in doing so sometimes were accused of being uncaring as we teach the father's requirements for exaltation in celestial kingdom."

So basically they are the victims here- God's messengers who only get criticized for being awful when in reality it's just God who sucks at this.
This is right out of the old Mormon leadership playbook. They said the same thing about people of African descent regarding the priesthood ban.

"It's not our fault! God wants it this way!" :cry:
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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græy
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by græy » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:19 am

From some of the letters between the first presidency and Dr. Lowry Nelson. Bold emphasis and <racial | sexual> replacements are mine.

https://www.mormonstories.org/other/Low ... change.pdf
From the days of the Prophet Joseph even until now, it has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any of the Church leaders, that the <Gay Individuals | Negroes> are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel.

Furthermore, your ideas, as we understand them, appear to contemplate the intermarriage of <the Negro and White races | two members of the same sex>, a concept which has heretofore been most repugnant to most normal-minded people from the ancient patriarchs till now. God's rule for Israel, His Chosen People, has been <endogamous | heterogamous>. Modern Israel has been similarly directed.

We are not unmindful of the fact that there is a growing tendency, particularly among some educators, as it manifests itself in this area, toward the breaking down of <race | sexual> barriers in the matter of intermarriage between <whites and blacks | same gendered individuals> but it does not have the sanction of the Church and is contrary to Church doctrine.
We feel very sure that you understand well the doctrines of the Church. They are either true or not true. Our testimony is that they are true. Under these circumstances we may not permit ourselves to be too much impressed by the reasonings of men however well-founded they may seem to be. We should like to say this to you in all kindness and in all sincerity that you are too fine a man to permit yourself to be led off from the principles of the Gospel by worldly learning. You have too much of a potentiality for doing good and we therefore prayerfully hope that you can reorient your thinking and bring it in line with the revealed word of God.
This is the SAME issue played out in a new century and targeted at a different group of people. They were wrong then. They are wrong now.
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Hagoth
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by Hagoth » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:37 am

Wait, so now we're supposed to worship Russell Nelson, right? I mean, he just claimed that he is a superior being to Elohim.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

consiglieri
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by consiglieri » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:38 pm

President Nelson saved the church from God!

Keewon
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by Keewon » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:51 pm

Consiglieri wrote:President Nelson saved the church from God!
There is precedent, you know. Isn't that the point of a priest, to stand between the people and the vicious demands of divine justice? Didn't Moses do the same thing? Aren't they all shadows of Christ's atonement?

I'm just saying that if you squint at it just so, it makes sense, a little.

However, "We goofed and fixed our mistake" sounds a lot more plausible. It would also be forgivable. JS made a big deal about "you forgive my mistakes, and I'll forgive your mistakes, and we'll go into heaven covering each others weaknesses" (or words to that effect).

Or Moroni:
Ether 12 wrote:I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
Weaknesses, mistakes, forgiveness- they're all part of the mortality deal. If Pres. Nelson had said "We were trying to fix a hard problem and made a mistake. We're sorry for that. Don't expect perfection of us, and we won't expect it of you (chuckles from audience)", this whole thing would sound a whole lot more reasonable. And it would be less of a problem for the members the next time leadership has to change a bad policy.

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Linked
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by Linked » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:16 pm

Nelson having to beg God to let him change the PoX in order to prevent the human suffering it caused also suggests that the church failed at living up to God's requirements. Somehow the world was not ready for God's law on gay people. Members of the church weren't ready to accept God's law on gay people. Gay people's response to exclusion was the wrong response.

He is implicitly saying that a person who feels like the PoX was a bad policy is in conflict with God, and failed. Your discomfort with refusing baptism to children makes you a failure to God.

ETA - And those who didn't have an issue with it were on the same page with God. And those who suppressed their negative reaction and got in line were on the same page with God. "Good job guys, you did right, but those LGBT people and disaffected people and less-conforming people screwed it up for all of us.If it weren't for them we could have our Zion with no children of gay parents. Pushing back the second coming..."

ETA2 - The response from church leadership to the backlash to the PoX was really bad. Rather than empathy and validation for a reasonable feeling that denying baptism to children isn't right or that the church should stop attacking LGBT people, followed by a grown up, public discussion on why this policy was enacted followed by a modification/retraction based on the results, leadership doubled-down on their authority claiming the policy was a revelation. This painted them into a corner. Later when reality struck that the PoX was hurting people and (possibly more importantly) the church and they needed to reverse course, the leadership threw the PoX detractors further under the bus by saying they couldn't live up to God's expectations so RMN had to lower the bar for everyone. These guys have no empathy or self-awareness.

ETA3 - If you believe the PoX was immoral then RMN threw God under the bus. If you believe the PoX was the will of God then RMN threw those who disagree under the bus. But who did he not throw under the bus? RMN. According to his speech RMN is still a perfect conduit to God (the author of an immoral policy), and he is kind - possibly more kind than God himself. Protect the TBM view of the role of the prophet at any expense.
Last edited by Linked on Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Random
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by Random » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:44 pm

I know someone who decided to pray about it and was told Nelson is NOT God's prophet. Confirmation bias, perhaps? I submit that getting the opposite answer is also confirmation bias.
græy wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:43 pm
consiglieri wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:28 am
The fifth truth is that everybody can find out that what he has said is true by praying to God and God will let them know.

President Nelson then closes by testifying that everything he has said is true.
Thanks Consig!

What if I pray about it and the spirit confirms to me that the prophet doesn't actually know what he's doing, they're all just making it up as they go, and I am just as good if not better off ignoring the whole lot of them?
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by Random » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:46 pm

moksha wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:03 pm
when they saw how many young people were leaving the Church because of that hell-spawned decision.
And not so young. It was the reason I left. My request accidentally coincided with the mass resignation that happened at the time.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by Random » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:54 pm

Wow! This thread opened my eyes to throwing God under the bus. I'd never thought of the leaders doing that (neither did I watch/listen to/read the "remarkable address" where Nelson "pleaded" with students to prove he was a prophet . . . er . . . ), but the quotes on this thread lay it out in the open. God is and was the fall guy for a lot of things that were never his doing. Thanks for opening my eyes (again).
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Palerider
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by Palerider » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:15 pm

Keewon wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:51 pm
Consiglieri wrote:President Nelson saved the church from God!
There is precedent, you know. Isn't that the point of a priest, to stand between the people and the vicious demands of divine justice? Didn't Moses do the same thing? Aren't they all shadows of Christ's atonement?

I'm just saying that if you squint at it just so, it makes sense, a little.
This sounds as if you might be referencing Numbers 16:41-45 where God tells Moses to get out of the way because he's going to destroy Israel for their rebellion.

Moses hurriedly tells Aaron to take his censor and run into the congregation to make atonement for Israel whereupon the plague which had already started was halted at the point where Aaron stood. A manifestation of the respect God showed for his legitimately called priest and the ordinance He had given him.

This indeed is a type and symbol of the purpose and mission of the Savior.

But as the New Testament clearly states, once his mission was accomplished, HE became our Eternal High Priest before the Father. It is by his propitiation alone that our case for Mercy is laid before the Father. "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.."

This is an area of doctrine that has been sorely misunderstood (?) by the LDS church leadership since the begining. Although there is indication of church officers in the ancient Christian Church, the idea that they stand between Christians and Heavenly Father is a misunderstanding at best, a perversion at worst, of the doctrine and position of officers in the church.

The reintroduction of "priesthood" as conceived by Joseph (and those who influenced him) is just a modified borrowing from the Catholic tradition and opens the gates for all of the abuses that follow and grow from that fallacy.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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no1saint
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by no1saint » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:17 pm

As an out gay man in a long term relationship with a man, this was just ridiculous. I would leave it alone, but trying to integrate my life with my partner with my parents and TBM siblings is painful enough already. Adding these mental/spiritual/emotional acrobatics required to reconcile this policy change is too much.

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SincereInquirer
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by SincereInquirer » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:33 pm

I am just now getting up to speed with Ol' Nellie's talk.

Can anyone explain why he would even talk about the policy reversal like this right now? I know it was a topic of discussion for a while after it happened, but like most news, seemed like the tide had past.

Is the policy reversal still a hot topic in Utah, or on BYU campus? It it still being discussed in Sunday School and they need to tamp it down?

I just don't understand why Nellie would drag prime evidence of their idiocy back out into the light like this.
"I don't need the Mormon church to be true, I just need it to not be verifiably false." - something I read somewhere...(help me give proper citation credit if you know where this came from)

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græy
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by græy » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:10 pm

Random wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:44 pm
I know someone who decided to pray about it and was told Nelson is NOT God's prophet. Confirmation bias, perhaps? I submit that getting the opposite answer is also confirmation bias.
I agree with you totally, Random. And that is precisely why praying to know if he is a prophet, or praying to know if what he says is true, is not an effective way of coming to those conclusions. Confirmation bias is a tricky thing when you need emotion to give you an objective result.
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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Palerider
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by Palerider » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:12 pm

SincereInquirer wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:33 pm
I am just now getting up to speed with Ol' Nellie's talk.

Can anyone explain why he would even talk about the policy reversal like this right now? I know it was a topic of discussion for a while after it happened, but like most news, seemed like the tide had past.

Is the policy reversal still a hot topic in Utah, or on BYU campus? It it still being discussed in Sunday School and they need to tamp it down?

I just don't understand why Nellie would drag prime evidence of their idiocy back out into the light like this.
Totally guessing here but judging by past behavior, the church always seems to be reactive. Leadership is almost forever behind the curve.

So I highly suspect there is some serious fallout occurring somewhere that has prompted this attempt to mitigate the problem rather than leadership being prompted by the Holy Ghost.

As yourself, I would love to know the specifics.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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alas
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Re: Pres Nelson's BYU Speech Today

Post by alas » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:07 am

Palerider wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:12 pm
SincereInquirer wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:33 pm
I am just now getting up to speed with Ol' Nellie's talk.

Can anyone explain why he would even talk about the policy reversal like this right now? I know it was a topic of discussion for a while after it happened, but like most news, seemed like the tide had past.

Is the policy reversal still a hot topic in Utah, or on BYU campus? It it still being discussed in Sunday School and they need to tamp it down?

I just don't understand why Nellie would drag prime evidence of their idiocy back out into the light like this.
Totally guessing here but judging by past behavior, the church always seems to be reactive. Leadership is almost forever behind the curve.

So I highly suspect there is some serious fallout occurring somewhere that has prompted this attempt to mitigate the problem rather than leadership being prompted by the Holy Ghost.

As yourself, I would love to know the specifics.
It takes time for the proper committee to gather the blogs and internet discussion grumbling and then present it to the leadership in one of their bubble penetrating briefings. Then the brethren have to discuss it. Then it has to keep Rusty awake at night. Then one of those nights when he is awake worrying about how stupid the whole thing made him look, some thought comes into his head. He sends Wendy out of the room while he writes down his late night justifications of his own behavior, in one of those , “I should have said....” moments that we all have, but because he is prophet it must be inspiration on what the members need to hear for their salvation. Then he has to get the word out that he has some wonderful new revelation and then he presents his revelation at his next speaking assignment. See, this whole process takes time. It isn’t like God tells his prophet what is going to happen ahead of time. What kind of God do you think Rusty worships? A real one?

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