NOM

I haven't seen this You Tube video interview up yet, here on these message boards I mean, but think it is interesting to note that Givens is turning to the LDS Egyptologists and getting more and more involved with the Book of Abraham and the Papyri. I have made a couple comments on the video as has others. So, we might be in for some more discussion either through You Tube or else on message boards on this subject, which is as it should be.
https://drpepaw.wixsite.com/backyardpro ... e-Evidence

*Sigh* I just don't have the energy to keep up with the endless tap dancing. As I've said before, I would just love if Givans (and his ilk) would sit still long enough to answer a couple of questions:

"If the JS papyri turned out to recognizably be what JS claimed them to be, would that be scientific evidence that JS was a prophet? Then, if that is not the case, if they turn out not to be what JS claimed them to be, is that evidence he was not a prophet? Why is there scientific evidence in the first case but not the second? (In 1000 words or less...)"

Sheesh... it shouldn't be this hard...

Apologeticsislying wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:28 pm

I haven't seen this You Tube video interview up yet, here on these message boards I mean, but think it is interesting to note that Givens is turning to the LDS Egyptologists and getting more and more involved with the Book of Abraham and the Papyri. I have made a couple comments on the video as has others. So, we might be in for some more discussion either through You Tube or else on message boards on this subject, which is as it should be.
https://drpepaw.wixsite.com/backyardpro ... e-Evidence

I’ve wondered how much support/direction he gets from the top guys. It seems like he tends to focus on the topics that are giving the leadership the most angst. I totally see him as a TBM who pretends to be nuanced in order to convince those that are struggling that he “gets” them. And then he uses that standing with them to convince them to stay or fill them full of FAIR prepared crap so they’ll convince themselves to stay. I think he’s a patsy for the top 15. But I have no evidence to support that.

Apologeticsislying wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:28 pm

https://drpepaw.wixsite.com/backyardpro ... e-Evidence

I haven't finished reading this yet but just your list of all of the things that need to believed literally is kind of shocking when you see them condensed like that. Might as well toss in some literal unicorns and headless horsemen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJtkwzWvBQE

The particular school of epistemological thought utilized by Mr. Givens and Dr. Muhlestein is known by it's Reformed Greek phrase, Shuck and Jive.



BTW, Kerry was able to swallow an entire thesaurus without once having to ease its passage with demon coffee. Got to love him for that!

BTW 2, I also loved Cinepro's pictorial response to the Givens & Muhlestein video:

Anon70 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:23 am

Apologeticsislying wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:28 pm

I haven't seen this You Tube video interview up yet, here on these message boards I mean, but think it is interesting to note that Givens is turning to the LDS Egyptologists and getting more and more involved with the Book of Abraham and the Papyri. I have made a couple comments on the video as has others. So, we might be in for some more discussion either through You Tube or else on message boards on this subject, which is as it should be.
https://drpepaw.wixsite.com/backyardpro ... e-Evidence

I’ve wondered how much support/direction he gets from the top guys. It seems like he tends to focus on the topics that are giving the leadership the most angst. I totally see him as a TBM who pretends to be nuanced in order to convince those that are struggling that he “gets” them. And then he uses that standing with them to convince them to stay or fill them full of FAIR prepared crap so they’ll convince themselves to stay. I think he’s a patsy for the top 15. But I have no evidence to support that.

He's getting support from someone. You don't travel the Church giving Firesides on your own dime on a college professor's salary. Perhaps he's not getting support from the Church directly, they like to get other people to do their dirty work to give them plausible deniability (as in "Hey, this guy Hoffman is selling some old documents, we'd like you to buy one for us and then donate it to us").

I found this fascinating, given that Givens initially aligned himself with the Hauglid/Jensen camp when it came to the BOA and the writing of his book, and now he's sleeping with the enemy by making this video with Muhlestein? Wow.

Maybe Givens sees himself as the bridge between the two camps, trying to bring them together.

To borrow from The Bard: "“Misery acquaints a man with strange bedfellows."

In general it looks like apologist are overall loosing the war to defend the BOA. War does make for strange bedfellows.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:56 am

To borrow from The Bard: "“Misery acquaints a man with strange bedfellows."

In general it looks like apologist are overall loosing the war to defend the BOA. War does make for strange bedfellows.

Seems like a good as answer as any!

Not Buying It wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:39 am

Anon70 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:23 am

Apologeticsislying wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:28 pm

I haven't seen this You Tube video interview up yet, here on these message boards I mean, but think it is interesting to note that Givens is turning to the LDS Egyptologists and getting more and more involved with the Book of Abraham and the Papyri. I have made a couple comments on the video as has others. So, we might be in for some more discussion either through You Tube or else on message boards on this subject, which is as it should be.
https://drpepaw.wixsite.com/backyardpro ... e-Evidence

I’ve wondered how much support/direction he gets from the top guys. It seems like he tends to focus on the topics that are giving the leadership the most angst. I totally see him as a TBM who pretends to be nuanced in order to convince those that are struggling that he “gets” them. And then he uses that standing with them to convince them to stay or fill them full of FAIR prepared crap so they’ll convince themselves to stay. I think he’s a patsy for the top 15. But I have no evidence to support that.

He's getting support from someone. You don't travel the Church giving Firesides on your own dime on a college professor's salary. Perhaps he's not getting support from the Church directly, they like to get other people to do their dirty work to give them plausible deniability (as in "Hey, this guy Hoffman is selling some old documents, we'd like you to buy one for us and then donate it to us").

I went to one of his firesides a few years ago and it was sponsored by the Temple Observatory Group (I think I'm butchering that). So there are some private groups who sponsor these events, but I'm just enough of a jerk to think that there is coordination going on from inside the COB.