Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

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Not Buying It
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Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Not Buying It » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:30 am

Geez, where is everybody today, no thread on this yet?

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/10 ... ansgender/
“ … Binary creation is essential to the plan of salvation.”
Guess God done screwed up with those born with Klinefelter syndrome.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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moksha
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by moksha » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:35 am

If there wasn't an address hating on some group for their sexual or political difference, we couldn't know it is the Conference season. It's not like we can hear reindeer hooves on the roof for this one.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Apologeticsislying
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Apologeticsislying » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:49 am

moksha wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:35 am
If there wasn't an address hating on some group for their sexual or political difference, we couldn't know it is the Conference season. It's not like we can hear reindeer hooves on the roof for this one.
One notices also the lack of criticism of other religious views. It has moved into a different arena. Now its more social agenda. i.e., control of people.
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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Red Ryder
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:17 pm

By binary creation he really means this:

Single?
1 = OK, but find a mate.
0 = OK, but find a mate.

Married?
10 = OK
100000000000000000000 = OK
11 = not OK
00 = not OK
100 = OK
110 = not OK
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

lostinmiddlemormonism
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by lostinmiddlemormonism » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:58 pm

My biggest problem with Oaks is his stunning hypocrisy. He talks about the importance defending religious freedom while simultaneously kicking BYU students that choose to change their religion from Mormonism to something else? What about their religious freedom? In the one institution that he can actually exert control or influence Oaks chooses to punish those that excercise their religious freedom in a manner that he disapproves of.

It is the same thing here. Oaks is perfectly accepting of the idea that marriage is NOT between one man and one woman. After all, I am sure that he would claim that he is eternally married to both June and Kristen. He would be the first to claim that his marriage to June was NOT ended by her death, yet he pursued a second wife. So, whenever you hear him talk about marriage is between one man and one woman, remember that he himself doesn't believe it or practice it. Just like religious freedom. So long as he gets to make the rules he is happy. The man is an asshat.

Anon70
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Anon70 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:44 pm

Dallin is 87. He’s pretty healthy. Not sure he can outlast Nelson but if he does whooooo boy are things at church going to get ugly (or is it uglier?)!

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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:57 pm

Anon70 wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:44 pm
Dallin is 87. He’s pretty healthy. Not sure he can outlast Nelson but if he does whooooo boy are things at church going to get ugly (or is it uglier?)!
Oaks may give us the “Packer moment” we all were hoping for.

To be honest though, I’m really hoping Nelson makes it another 5 years minimum or that Wendy and Sheri can implement phase II of the apostle wive’s club conspiracy which transfers the power to them.

Perhaps baptismal witnesses are the first step!
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Apologeticsislying » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:11 pm

The next step for Wendi and Sheri is to rewrite the D&C (under RMN's seer stone revelation, but of course, we cannot abide insubordination) showing the Lord wishes the succession of his prophet when he passes onto his second anointed eternities is to be had by his eternal partner, his wife. Wendi for President!
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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blazerb
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by blazerb » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:34 pm

Apologeticsislying wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:11 pm
The next step for Wendi and Sheri is to rewrite the D&C (under RMN's seer stone revelation, but of course, we cannot abide insubordination) showing the Lord wishes the succession of his prophet when he passes onto his second anointed eternities is to be had by his eternal partner, his wife. Wendi for President!
I think they should be afraid that there would be some proviso about marrying the next in line, the same way JS's wives were.

One of the problems about what Oaks said is the way it cuts off inquiry into the spectrum of humanity. You're a 1 or a 0 as Red Ryder put it. Transgender persons, persons with XX male syndrome or other conditions are just ignored. I'm sure he would tell us that he does not have time to speak to the exceptions. This is an area where failing to speak about the exceptions is killing people. It's awful.

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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Hagoth » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:38 pm

The thing that sickened me about Oaks' talk was the disingenuous way he first stomps all over trans people and then tells US to open our hearts and love them, knowing full well that he has just given us an apostolic command to NOT do so.

Why did he feel the need to slap the other cheek? There's an article in the Tribune that clarifies. Apparently there are trans members of the church who have found some reconciliation with The Proclamation. It says gender is eternal, which they were interpreting as a confirmation that they really did bring their gender into this life with them, but they somehow ended up with an imperfect body. But nope, Oaks can't bear the thought of them finding any peace in this life. To Oaks you ARE your genitals. All of his sweet talk about how loving he is falls resoundingly flat in the presence of his smoldering hatred.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Palerider » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:42 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:38 pm

To Oaks you ARE your genitals. All of his sweet talk about how loving he is falls resoundingly flat in the presence of his smoldering hatred.
Just wondering here if Oaks could be speaking of the situation with a hermaphrodite?

These are very difficult situations to deal with, especially for physicians. From my reading it appears that an individual while displaying both male and female characteristics, they may manifest, as an example, more specifically a male characteristic even when blood or genetic testing shows an XX or female chromosomal arrangement.

In the past physicians have even removed the more prominent genitalia, if it doesn't match the chromosomal arrangement. It's a hugely difficult decision to make. Apparently numerous hermaphrodites have expressed the desire that they had been given the opportunity to choose their own path at a later time in life.

I know there is a different scenario in the case of a transgender individual and so was curious if Oaks might be addressing a more broad spectrum of issues?

Is he in fact saying that it is possible to receive an "imperfect" body with congenital gender difficulties but also saying it is impossible to receive a "wrong" or "incorrect" body of an entirely different sex than the spirit possesses?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

Apologeticsislying
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Apologeticsislying » Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:10 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:38 pm
The thing that sickened me about Oaks' talk was the disingenuous way he first stomps all over trans people and then tells US to open our hearts and love them, knowing full well that he has just given us an apostolic command to NOT do so.

Why did he feel the need to slap the other cheek? There's an article in the Tribune that clarifies. Apparently there are trans members of the church who have found some reconciliation with The Proclamation. It says gender is eternal, which they were interpreting as a confirmation that they really did bring their gender into this life with them, but they somehow ended up with an imperfect body. But nope, Oaks can't bear the thought of them finding any peace in this life. To Oaks you ARE your genitals. All of his sweet talk about how loving he is falls resoundingly flat in the presence of his smoldering hatred.
Masculine Patriarchy cannot have love, they have rules. Oaks cannot possibly ever share compassion since he has none. He cannot share love and inclusion, he has none. He is the head of a dominating all male bureaucracy. He does not know the scripture in his heart, he knows it in his head. The difference is vast.

Again, as I explore various literatures I ignored for years in order to spend my time ridiculously wasting it in the cause of apologetics, I find the theme of the search for the Holy Grail fascinating. Each knight of King Arthur's Court had to go on their own individual path or they would get off track, even if one of the others was on the right path! It must be individually discovered, or forever remain unknown. You cannot be told in advance what to find, you have to find and find out for yourself. It is individualistic knowledge, not preordained knowledge you must arrive at to continue supporting a group view, especially a church group. Of all things this seriously hits my heart powerfully! Not only such a magnificent story of magnificent spirituality, but a magnificent message today when so much bureaucratic corruption in religion is seen hourly.
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by 2bizE » Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:47 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:30 am
Geez, where is everybody today, no thread on this yet?

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/10 ... ansgender/
“ … Binary creation is essential to the plan of salvation.”
Guess God done screwed up with those born with Klinefelter syndrome.
No thread because we are exhausted from trying to stage manage the large grizzly bear of Mr. Oaks. His rhetoric is the same vomit inducing slop every time he opens his mouth. Like Mr. Trump, sometimes you just try to ignore. If he becomes prophet, I imagine he will require intense interviews to identify any gay person in the church as though they are Cylons from Battle Star Gallactica. It will be like in the past using genealogy to weed out anyone with black roots.
~2bizE

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2bizE
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by 2bizE » Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:52 pm

So nice that Oaks has done the thinking for us so we don’t have to.
~2bizE

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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:04 pm

Wait a minute - didn't Oaks last conference tell me not to listen to non-experts on important matters? Why the hell would I listen to a lawyer spout nonsense about biology when he clearly hasn't read any of the science? In all the literature I've read, intersex individuals make up between 1.7 and 3% of the world's population. (More than Mormons, by the way.) So how eternal are THEIR genitalia?

Just garbage.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Apologeticsislying » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:11 pm

2bizE wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:52 pm
So nice that Oaks has done the thinking for us so we don’t have to.
And, we don't even have to criticize him, even while we are right. We can just disagree with his amateur knowledge of this subject.
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Blashyrkh » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:01 am

Seriously? This whole choose your gender thing is only a recent creation. 10 years ago you all would have agreed that transgendered people were mentally ill or had some serious issues. Now that it's been pushed on us that you can be any gender you want you have all accepted it as a real thing. Yes there are certain instances where biology causes issues. But up until recently even the psychological community agreed that transgenderism was a mental disorder. Oooh but now you are all so enlightened over the prehistoric and bigoted views that you all held just a few years ago. Good grief. If your born a male you are a male. Female, female. Yes you may have tendencies towards the other sex. My son is a little effeminate. He will never be a lumberjack or Navy SEAL but he is still a male.

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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by blazerb » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:35 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:01 am
Seriously? This whole choose your gender thing is only a recent creation. 10 years ago you all would have agreed that transgendered people were mentally ill or had some serious issues. Now that it's been pushed on us that you can be any gender you want you have all accepted it as a real thing. Yes there are certain instances where biology causes issues. But up until recently even the psychological community agreed that transgenderism was a mental disorder. Oooh but now you are all so enlightened over the prehistoric and bigoted views that you all held just a few years ago. Good grief. If your born a male you are a male. Female, female. Yes you may have tendencies towards the other sex. My son is a little effeminate. He will never be a lumberjack or Navy SEAL but he is still a male.
Here's some reading for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history Of course, Wikipedia is not the final word, but the article gives plenty of references for you.

You do not know my views from 10 years ago. You do not have the right to tell me what I thought, what I think, or what I will be thinking. A single data point out of the 7.5 billion possible is a ridiculous basis for a conclusion, but the flippant way you describe this tells me that you are not interested in a real conversation about the issue.

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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by Palerider » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:16 am

blazerb wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:35 am
Blashyrkh wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:01 am
Seriously? This whole choose your gender thing is only a recent creation. 10 years ago you all would have agreed that transgendered people were mentally ill or had some serious issues. Now that it's been pushed on us that you can be any gender you want you have all accepted it as a real thing. Yes there are certain instances where biology causes issues. But up until recently even the psychological community agreed that transgenderism was a mental disorder. Oooh but now you are all so enlightened over the prehistoric and bigoted views that you all held just a few years ago. Good grief. If your born a male you are a male. Female, female. Yes you may have tendencies towards the other sex. My son is a little effeminate. He will never be a lumberjack or Navy SEAL but he is still a male.
Here's some reading for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history Of course, Wikipedia is not the final word, but the article gives plenty of references for you.

You do not know my views from 10 years ago. You do not have the right to tell me what I thought, what I think, or what I will be thinking. A single data point out of the 7.5 billion possible is a ridiculous basis for a conclusion, but the flippant way you describe this tells me that you are not interested in a real conversation about the issue.
I don't know.....

Blashyrkh may have a point if only in the sense that the medical community seems to be all over the place on this issue. Here are a couple of articles leaning heavily toward considering transgender tendencies a disorder.

https://www.webmd.com/sex/gender-dysphoria

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/mi ... sex-change

It appears that the issue isn't settled by any means.

I'm always open to good science and improvements in medical approaches. I just don't want to see approaches being politically/socially driven in our time just as they were driven by religion in the past.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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blazerb
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Re: Elder Oaks Defines "Gender" for Us - In His Usual Bigoted Way

Post by blazerb » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:02 am

Palerider wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:16 am
It appears that the issue isn't settled by any means.

I'm always open to good science and improvements in medical approaches. I just don't want to see approaches being politically/socially driven in our time just as they were driven by religion in the past.
I can accept a good discussion on the issues involved. I can't accept saying that someone is just playing "choose your gender." I cannot imagine why anyone would choose to be transgender. It makes no sense. Writing off their experiences is what the church did to me and continues to do.

I don't want to imply that I am LGBT. I have other issues the church ignores.

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