More about me because someone asked me to share

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Apologeticsislying
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More about me because someone asked me to share

Post by Apologeticsislying » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:55 pm

So, I would classify myself as the kind of guy that likes to know how it happened. I rather enjoy studying the stories of King Arthur and the detective work that goes into that, as well as Merlin, of course, and the historical Jesus, of course, and as an apologist, on Joseph Smith. Its the idea of how to sift through evidences that seems interesting to me.

As an apologist I wanted to know as absolutely much as possible in order to defend truth which I possessed I hadn't realized that thinking I had it would actually shape how I work through so-called evidences and historic materials and writings. But it really does.

On my mission I discovered Hugh Nibley. I was so enthralled I couldn't hardly stand it. I told the Lord if he would lead me I would gather all that this man writes and begin sharing it. I went to Ricks College in Rexburg Id, and went to my classes just enough to get passing grades because I had discovered the mother lode, all of Hugh Nibley's materials in the old Improvement Eras and other church magazines. I photocopied them all for days and days and days. I kept my eye out for his other books and photocopied all of them as well. This was pre-internet days so I had a lot more leg work to do and I was on cloud 9 doing it. I also gathered as many sources of FARMS as I could since they had started out a few years before my mission and I had a lot of catching up to do, so I got on their mailing list and ordered everything I could of theirs.

And then 4 and a1/2 years later went through a nasty divorce. I was so devastated. My kids were kept from me, the bishop and stake president didn't support me, I ended up with all the bills, debt, etc., and they always reinforced me paying my child support, but never her allowing me to see the kids. It was the most horrific thing I could have imagined.

Fast forward to my second marriage (still going strong after 32 years! Yeah baby) and I was feeling so guilty a few years after my divorce I told the Lord I would defend his church for him. And through much mailing and correspondence I was discussing stuff with all kinds of ministers, people, etc. Writing newspaper columns in local papers. Then the internet showed up and I jumped on it.

Through time as I was answering questions, and finding others who were doing the same, and some of them way better than I was, we all sort of got together behind the scenes and studied together to get the most powerful answers to critics. After a few months we realized we were all just answering the same old questions that were being asked, so we decided to start a website where we could put all the answers to and then just point to it. It was brilliant! Thus started FAIR.

Now being the egotist I was I recognized that there were so many people who knew so much more than I did, that I really had to buckle under and study, so I did. I had received a B.S. in history from Idaho State University in 1995, so I figured I could take those skills and become the most learned apologist there was, since I was also very familiar by now with Hugh Nibley's arguments and was also gathering the sources he used so I could do so as well. I read voraciously for several years, and typed almost nonstop building up the FAIR site, and my own website.

Then one of the guys started a message board which ended up being so much fun! It was the Zions Lighthouse Message Board as a challenge to the Tanner's own anti-Mormon website and message board. It was through this that I then once again realized that I didn't know all that much because there were plenty of people who refuted us and it bothered me immensely. (I left out my activity on a very early message board, can't remember the name of it right now, but I was gung ho on it for several years)

Anyway, it was on ZLMB that I saw my interpretations were of a certain kind, and other LDS had knowledge of Mormonism and early church history that I was unaware of. Through time in the private email group for FAIR I was beginning to ask a lot of troubling questions that no one had answers to, and then eventually, I realized FAIR was not for me. That's making a long story short.

So, that kinda in a generalized way gives you a little about me as an apologist. I had focused hard on the Book of Abraham because it was such a specialty scripture, and I poured myself into the study of the Egyptian facsimiles in the Book of Abraham. Presented a lot of firesides, and talks, and papers, and stuff like that. Through time, I came to recognize the faultiness of my approach which I did not even realize when I was an apologist, and with the coming of Robert Ritner against John Gee, and the materials of Dan Vogel, and Brent Lee Metcalfe, and Ed Ashment, etc., I realized it was useless to defend the indefensible.

Now, once Mormonism is realized to be wrong, there is nowhere to go but to atheism. Because none of the other churches are right, therefore I got heavy into atheism for about 6 years. Read dozens and dozens of their materials, and recognized that they really have won the war. It's over, apologists don't realize it yet. And yet, for all that, I just cannot, for the life of me, agree that atheism has the last word. Soooooo, I see myself now as a seeking agnostic, emphasis on the seeking. I honestly don't know, and its honestly O.K. to say so, because that's the fact. But Nihilism simply cannot be right. I read several arguments both for and against, and Nihilism just doesn't work, not for me.

Because of this weird place I find myself in, I am studying the East and finding it as if I had a lot of missing old friends. The Buddhist, Zen, and Theravada ideas are electrifying to me. The works of Alan Watts, D.T. Suzuki, Joseph Campbell, Mercea Eliade, and many others are now seeming to me to give me a second wind. The themes of mythology as the mythic scholars describe it and attempt to teach it seems to me to have something going for it after all.

Ironically, I also really, really do enjoy studying science and trying to make sure I learn as much in that area as I can.

So, lets just say I am on my own personal hero adventure for spirituality, and it's a blast going through it all. I know nothing, but it's fun to try to.

I have many books I want to review, some Mormon, some not, and sometimes I try to be really serious and scholarly, and other times whimsical and attempt lamely to use humor. So bear with me, I really am sort of just a ding a ling idiot who really doesn't know anything or how to articulate it either. Yikes!

Now that I have bored you all plenty, I apologize for wasting your time, you could have been reading in a good book... :D
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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Red Ryder
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Re: More about me because someone asked me to share

Post by Red Ryder » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:49 pm

A few more questions in this budding AMA:

Would you describe yourself as someone with religious scrupulosity?

Is your current wife a believer and if so how does she deal with your change of mind?

What brought you over to NOM? I’ve been a long time lurker over at MD and have enjoyed your posts over there.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

Apologeticsislying
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Re: More about me because someone asked me to share

Post by Apologeticsislying » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:53 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:49 pm
A few more questions in this budding AMA:

Would you describe yourself as someone with religious scrupulosity?

Is your current wife a believer and if so how does she deal with your change of mind?

What brought you over to NOM? I’ve been a long time lurker over at MD and have enjoyed your posts over there.
Religious scrupulosity as in maintaining ritual or something? Not much. Trying to live a good, useful, loving life to all? Definitely.

My wife is not a believer, she had her falling out before I ever met her. She has been tolerant of me through the years.

I enjoy seeing more sides and dimensions. NOM talks about stuff the other board doesn't and vice versa
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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græy
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Re: More about me because someone asked me to share

Post by græy » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:32 am

Apologeticsislying wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:55 pm
Now that I have bored you all plenty, I apologize for wasting your time, you could have been reading in a good book... :D
I feel like I just did read a good book! Thank you for your introduction. Welcome! And thank you for joining us! I enjoyed the first part of your review of Harrell's book and I look forward to catching up on the rest of your writing here on NOM.
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

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AllieOop
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Re: More about me because someone asked me to share

Post by AllieOop » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:39 am

Apologeticsislying wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:55 pm
Now that I have bored you all plenty, I apologize for wasting your time, you could have been reading in a good book... :D
Your post wasn't boring at all!! Quite the opposite.....I loved reading through it and learning a bit more about your history.

I'm thrilled you've joined NOM and are contributing with some excellent information and insight. I've actually followed you for years and have even seen videos of you from FAIR conferences (back when you were a gung ho apologist :) )

Anyway....welcome!!!
"There came a time when the desire to know the truth about the church became stronger than the desire to know the church was true."

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Red Ryder
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Re: More about me because someone asked me to share

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:42 am

The still small voice says AllieOop needs to spend more time on NOM!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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AllieOop
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Re: More about me because someone asked me to share

Post by AllieOop » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:20 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:42 am
The still small voice says AllieOop needs to spend more time on NOM!
I'm on every day....mainly reading and learning (we have the best members here!!).

I love this place and it will always feel like home for me :)
"There came a time when the desire to know the truth about the church became stronger than the desire to know the church was true."

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Hagoth
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Re: More about me because someone asked me to share

Post by Hagoth » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:05 pm

Thanks Kerry, that was fascinating. The analogy I use for my experience with apologetics is that I felt like I was following a path through a forest that I thought was infinitely deep, but then one day I was surprised to realize that I unexpectedly emerged on the other side. And that's where the journey starts. And it's all about the journey, right?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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deacon blues
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Re: More about me because someone asked me to share

Post by deacon blues » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:18 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:05 pm
Thanks Kerry, that was fascinating. The analogy I use for my experience with apologetics is that I felt like I was following a path through a forest that I thought was infinitely deep, but then one day I was surprised to realize that I unexpectedly emerged on the other side. And that's where the journey starts. And it's all about the journey, right?
A great analogy. All those people in the forest are looking for the best tree and don't want to enjoy the view from the mountainside. I'm gonna see what's at the top of the mountain, if I can get there. "The Joy is in the Journey." Sorry, I borrowed that from a song I learned in a Mormon production. :oops:

I like this board because I can talk to people who are out of the forest and climbing up the mountain.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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moksha
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Re: More about me because someone asked me to share

Post by moksha » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:10 am

Okay Kerry,

Boxers or briefs?
Cheerios or Wheaties?
French, Vietnamese or French-Vietnamese?
Ford or Chevy?
Marianne or Ginger?
The Hulk or Superman?
Alabama or Clemson?
Star Wars or Star Trek?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Not Buying It
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Re: More about me because someone asked me to share

Post by Not Buying It » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:23 am

So Apologeticislying (I’ll use your superhero name), I have to ask, your name certainly gives the impression that apologists play fast and loose with the truth, and of course one of our major criticisms of FAIR is all the deception and half-truths and spin they employ. I’m curious, to what extent are they aware they are doing it? Is it a fully conscious decision made with the rationalization that the Church must be protected at all costs? Do they have kind of a murky awareness that they aren’t being completely forthright, but it’s like an uneasy feeling that goes away if they ignore it? Or are they completely blind to the way they twist the truth, not even realizing they are doing it? In their minds, are they being completely honest?

By the way, welcome, it is good to have you here.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

Apologeticsislying
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Re: More about me because someone asked me to share

Post by Apologeticsislying » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:42 am

I think for the most part yes they are fully aware of the issues and they are determined to make sure the narrative comes out and supports the brethren and the church. On the other hand there may be some associated with them who actually are not all that aware since they are new recruits into the army so to speak.

And on the other other hand, I actually couldn't see what I see now, when I was headlong into it. Being on the inside and having a determination to demonstrate your loyalty brown brownie brethren points is a heady thing too come to think of it.

The older apologists I am sure know a lot more and are able to nuance things to make it as plausible as possible even though they know there are issues. The message boards bring too much to the table for them to totally be ignorant of.

But then on the other hand, Donald Trump followers really do believe him, so perhaps LDS followers really do believe the narrative and what the brethren tell in their spun yarns concerning truth. They KNOW the world sees the as Dodos, exactly like Holland feared in that interview of him a few years ago. That just had to be a painful reminder to him. Lol.
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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Hagoth
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Re: More about me because someone asked me to share

Post by Hagoth » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:04 am

Three things really stand out for me in preventing me from giving the apologist a break:

-Daniel Petersen's admission that he knew all along that Alma was a man's name in Joseph Smith's environment.

-John Gee calling the facts about the BoA hand grenades that should not be trusted to ordinary non-apologist members, and his repetition of BKP's accusation that those who tell the truth will be under God's condemnation.

-Kerry Muhlstein saying that the P leiden papyrus image of a lion couch is accompanied by the text, "Abraham upon the couch."

These people are intentionally dishonest. They know it, we know it. Only their faithful followers don't know it.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Corsair
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Re: More about me because someone asked me to share

Post by Corsair » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:58 am

Apologeticsislying wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:55 pm
Now that I have bored you all plenty, I apologize for wasting your time, you could have been reading in a good book... :D
Thanks for the autobiography! I remember seeing some of your videos during my own transition. I liked your style, but I kept getting the same hollow feeling from all apologetics.

I am unlikely to ever directly engage with apologists or LDS defenders. Still, is there any argument that you have found consistently is unaddressed by apologetics?

I rather think that the doctrine(?) of getting answers from the spirit is a real problem for the LDS church. I openly admit that if someone has a testimony, they are unlikely to come to a conclusion where the LDS church is "not what it claims to be", if not actually "false". But if I were to tell my bishop that I had a witness of the spirit that the LDS church is not all it's cracked up to be, the best he can really do is just bear his own epistemologically challenged testimony. Is there any apologetic argument to deal with a spiritual witness that is opposite of "LDS church is true?"

Apologeticsislying
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Re: More about me because someone asked me to share

Post by Apologeticsislying » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:38 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:04 am
Three things really stand out for me in preventing me from giving the apologist a break:

-Daniel Petersen's admission that he knew all along that Alma was a man's name in Joseph Smith's environment.

-John Gee calling the facts about the BoA hand grenades that should not be trusted to ordinary non-apologist members, and his repetition of BKP's accusation that those who tell the truth will be under God's condemnation.

-Kerry Muhlstein saying that the P leiden papyrus image of a lion couch is accompanied by the text, "Abraham upon the couch."

These people are intentionally dishonest. They know it, we know it. Only their faithful followers don't know it.
Yeah my experiences with FAIR were similar also. The apologists know far more, yet they defend, because they are in the inside and actually can't see it all. Sometimes there is a break through. sometimes not. They are compensated, some with money, some with prestige... The BYU/FARMS guys are paid. Sure not directly, but 6 digits a year for being at BYU says they WONT be disagreeing with the brethren. They are in it for the security their paychecks give them in life, not because they know its true. They know its not. At least thats how I see it.
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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