Tithing settlement

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Mackman
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Mackman » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:27 am

Wow reading through all this especially the last post by mormon 8 just makes me sick !!!! I never knew the depth of Bullshit stated by the Q15 . I literally have starved in past years to pay tithing!!!!!!!!! I

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Not Buying It
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Not Buying It » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:12 am

Mackman wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:27 am
Wow reading through all this especially the last post by mormon 8 just makes me sick !!!! I never knew the depth of Bullshit stated by the Q15 . I literally have starved in past years to pay tithing!!!!!!!!! I
I have to actively work to not think about what my family and I missed out on thanks to tithing. I paid for well more than a decade after I stopped believing to keep my wife happy, which means that over that period the equivalent of more than one full year of my work went to a Church I didn’t even believe in any more. I got up, worked all day, came home tired and exhausted, and the equivalent of one entire year of that was for the Church alone.

And believing members wonder why those who leave the Church are so bitter about it...

It’s a messed up system all the way around, the demand of 10% of you income is unreasonable, the extortion they use to get it is unreasonable, and the high pressure shakedown they demand you attend every year to pressure you into paying it is unreasonable. Sure, you can just walk away from the Church and say “screw that”, but when your wife is going to be broken hearted that you can’t go to the temple with her anymore, when your parents are sobbing because you can’t be at the temple wedding in the family, when a thousand other social consequences are felt - well, that’s a hill too steep for a lot of people to climb. They have a lot of people in a corner, and they know it.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Advocate
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Advocate » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:40 am

You can give directly to Salt Lake via bill pay and request that it be anonymous. My understanding is that it will not show up on any ward reports, but your Bishop can still call Salt Lake and ask (and Salt Lake will disclose) what was given.

The easier solution is to give in stock. Many members do it and it generally doesn't show up on local reports. You can read up on a "Donor Advised Fund", which is a brokerage account which allows anyone to donate to any charity anonymously. Basically when you put the money into the Donor Advised Fund, you get the tax benefit right then (obviously from then on you can't take money back out of the donor advised fund, you can only choose which charities it goes to). A major benefit of a Donor Advised Fund is you can choose to give to any charity (including the church) truly anonymously. So all Salt Lake will see is a message from the brokerage that Salt Lake is receiving an anonymous donation of stock. Absolutely no way for anyone in the church to know who it came from.

Mackman
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Mackman » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:56 am

Its nobody's Damn business its between you and the Lord!!!!!!!! End of story.

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Yobispo
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Yobispo » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:41 am

Don't underestimate the power of direct eye contact, strong body language and short succinct answers like "I am a full tithe payer". Then keep staring and not speaking. Most will accept that and move along. But I think I'd start with the email as others suggested. You don't need to explain your calculations any more than you need to explain your bedroom activities.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:50 am

Yobispo wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:41 am
You don't need to explain your calculations any more than you need to explain your bedroom activities.
Yeah! That’s done in a different interview! :lol:
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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græy
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by græy » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:06 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:28 pm
Nowhere does it say you have to pay the full year’s tithes by tithing settlement. Nowhere does it say you have to pay monthly. Just pay your tithes according to the dictates of your conscious. If you consider yourself full then declare that.
This.

Many people pay annually at the end of the year. You can gain a lot of interest if you invest that tithing all year long and only pay at the end. In my experience if a bishop looks at your records and sees blank months, he will likely just assume that is your plan as well.

Bishops should not ask anything beyond a simply yes or no question. Those that do are going beyond their handbook defined responsibilities.
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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Newme
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Newme » Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:46 am

1smartdodog wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:02 pm
Been down this road over the years. Use to try and make it all work out but it never did. Finally I just said no to tithing settlement and gave up my recommend. My family just had to deal with me not going to the temple.
Same here. But I remember being so scared through this and generally questioning the church. I got called into the bishop’s office and swore he found out about my faith crisis and I felt like I was going to court to decide jail-time. Ironically, he called me in as well as the presidency to lecture us about not submitting names of people for callings, who are not as “valiant”/active. It’s crazy how much power this cultish church has over people! It’s not right.

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Newme
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Newme » Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:56 am

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:57 pm
Why do you have to account to anyone for how you spend your discretionary income. Imagine for a moment if the local united way called you in at the end of the year to make sure you had given them enough money. How would you respond? Do the same thing here.
That puts things in perspective.

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Newme
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Newme » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:00 am

Mormon 8 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:39 pm
Gatorbait wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:24 pm
Hermy nailed it.

Extortion is one word that he might have skillfully woven into the fabric of what he said.
Yeah, it is unconscionable to me how the church not only uses a big percentage of its donations for investing into interest bearing accounts for several years for massive development projects having nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ but also expects members to hand over 10% of their income to it to be considered 'worthy' when a simple lookup of the term 'interest' clearly means surplus, not income. Even worse, mission presidents are allowed to deduct almost any expense you can think of before paying theirs and GA's are exempt totally. A friend of mine who was once a member of the church who walked and talked with the GA's in the COB lost his testimony over this stuff and once told me 'brother, the church is nothing but a giant club for wealthy businessmen who were financially successful in life who know how to run and manage a big business'. He even revealed that the FP and members of the Q of the 12, when called, are given a $1 million gift to satisfy all their worldly debts and obligations. And that's in addition to their six figure salary, unlimited credit card use, Toyota Avalon, benefits and other perks for themselves and even family members.
Wow. I’ve travelled a bit to see how most of the world lives poorly and a lot are starving to death. Tithes are meant for the poor - but Oaks admitted no tithes goes for charity. I wonder if there is an accounting afterlife - what these leaders’ will have. Even if it’s a tradition they didn’t start - they are still responsible for their actions and suffering they caused directly and indirectly.

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2bizE
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by 2bizE » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:56 pm

In years past, I’ve been quick to sign up for settlement on the bishops office door. This year, nope. I have zero desire to sign up. Not sure what I will do...probably eventually sign up and declare my full tithe allegiance.
~2bizE

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blazerb
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by blazerb » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:33 pm

The last couple of years, I have not signed up. The bishop eventually sends me a text or phones me and asks for my tithing status. I guess I could probably justify declaring myself a full tithe payer, but I am tired of the crap. I just tell him I'm a non-tithe payer. I probably won't get a recommend ever again. I don't know what I'll do when my child gets married in the temple, but if that happens it won't be for a while. I'll confront the problem then.

Mormon 8
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Mormon 8 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:48 pm

Well, I eventually agreed to meet with our Bishop today about it and it was a total non-event... he simply asked if we were full tithe-payers, I said yep and that was that. Meeting was less than 5 minutes. But that is all a Bishop is supposed to do as there should be no questioning, shaming, pressure to pay, etc. - a Bishop should accept what you tell him, document it and that's it.

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Palerider
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Palerider » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:16 pm

Mormon 8 wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:48 pm
Well, I eventually agreed to meet with our Bishop today about it and it was a total non-event... he simply asked if we were full tithe-payers, I said yep and that was that. Meeting was less than 5 minutes. But that is all a Bishop is supposed to do as there should be no questioning, shaming, pressure to pay, etc. - a Bishop should accept what you tell him, document it and that's it.
This comes as no surprise if you know how pressed for time these guys are. Trying to get all this crap done by Salt Lake's deadline.... Can't believe I did this for five years.... :|
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Linked
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Linked » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:00 pm

Mormon 8 wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:48 pm
Well, I eventually agreed to meet with our Bishop today about it and it was a total non-event... he simply asked if we were full tithe-payers, I said yep and that was that. Meeting was less than 5 minutes. But that is all a Bishop is supposed to do as there should be no questioning, shaming, pressure to pay, etc. - a Bishop should accept what you tell him, document it and that's it.
That's great, I'm glad it turned out ok.

My ward is pushing tithing settlement pretty hard the past couple weeks. They even included a QR code in the sacrament meeting program to help people sign up. As we walked home from church yesterday I asked my TBM wife if she wanted to participate in tithing settlement this year. She replied with an emphatic "No.", so I guess the Linked household is done with tithing settlement for the foreseeable future!
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Random
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Random » Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:07 pm

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:57 pm
Why do you have to account to anyone for how you spend your discretionary income. Imagine for a moment if the local united way called you in at the end of the year to make sure you had given them enough money. How would you respond? Do the same thing here.
Putting it that way makes them look very, very creepy!

Mackman wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:27 am
I literally have starved in past years to pay tithing!!!!!!!!! I
Me, too. I was so angry when I finally realized that I should have only paid tithing if I could afford it - that paying my bills and buying food should come first.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Hermey
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Hermey » Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:15 pm

Newme wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:56 am
lostinmiddlemormonism wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:57 pm
Why do you have to account to anyone for how you spend your discretionary income. Imagine for a moment if the local united way called you in at the end of the year to make sure you had given them enough money. How would you respond? Do the same thing here.
That puts things in perspective.
Totally. I love this.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:53 pm

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:57 pm
Why do you have to account to anyone for how you spend your discretionary income. Imagine for a moment if the local united way called you in at the end of the year to make sure you had given them enough money. How would you respond? Do the same thing here.
United Way works a different angle. They partner with the company you work for and push a “United Way Campaign” where employees are encourage to make donations via payroll deductions. Some managers push it by saying it’s not mandatory but our business unit has always led in total donations! Wink wink.

So yes, United way doesn’t require annual settlement but they can be just as pushy. I’m ok with that as all charities need to push fundraising. It’s just not cool when you feel forced through church or your job!
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Corsair
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by Corsair » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:29 pm

2bizE wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:56 pm
In years past, I’ve been quick to sign up for settlement on the bishops office door. This year, nope. I have zero desire to sign up. Not sure what I will do...probably eventually sign up and declare my full tithe allegiance.
blazerb wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:33 pm
The last couple of years, I have not signed up. The bishop eventually sends me a text or phones me and asks for my tithing status. I guess I could probably justify declaring myself a full tithe payer, but I am tired of the crap. I just tell him I'm a non-tithe payer. I probably won't get a recommend ever again. I don't know what I'll do when my child gets married in the temple, but if that happens it won't be for a while. I'll confront the problem then.
I suppose it is my duty to pop in with my customarily cynical advice. I will be faced with tithing settlement again and I do have my lovely, but troubled, believing wife who really hates to hear me give my annual prevarication that, "Yes, I am a full tithe payer."

Yes, this is a complete lie. I have paid a big 'ol goose egg for tithing this year as in the past. I will gladly stand before the judgement bar and explain my reasoning on this lie. It's not quite up to the level of "No, Herr Commandant, there are no Jews hiding in my attic." But there is an implied threat on you if you tell your bishop, "I am not a full tithe payer."

Your life will not be threatened. But you will first be shamed by your bishop in front of your family. You could lose your temple recommend and cause heartache at the next sealing you can't attend, particularly if/when it is your own child. You will lose social status in your religious community. You will lose respect from your spouse, your parents, your siblings, your children, your ward members, and anyone else that will quickly believe that your loss of a temple recommend comes from use of porn, cocaine, and meth-addled prostitutes. I have complete respect for the numerous unbelievers that cast themselves into this crucible.

In addition, any good that might have been doing in your ward can quickly come under scrutiny. Did you enjoy mentoring the youth in your ward in a YM or YW leadership role? The LDS church wants full tithe payers teaching the youth. It's a particularly cynical move if you simply want to never be in leadership. If your status becomes known, and it will, shortly, your opinion will be passive aggressively undervalued in any Sunday School class you might participate in.

This is not some quiet issue of personal spirituality or worthiness that can be faced by honest reflection within your own soul. This is your spiritual life being tarred and feathered in front of an insular community. Marriages have ended over this. Family relationships have been cut off. Employment could be in jeopardy at times. "Not making your Mom cry" is widely acknowledged goal of the apostate community because we love our mothers, but too many mothers also love the LDS church.

I will return and report my own impending encounter with tithing settlement.

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blazerb
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Re: Tithing settlement

Post by blazerb » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:48 pm

Corsair wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:29 pm
I suppose it is my duty to pop in with my customarily cynical advice. I will be faced with tithing settlement again and I do have my lovely, but troubled, believing wife who really hates to hear me give my annual prevarication that, "Yes, I am a full tithe payer."

Yes, this is a complete lie. I have paid a big 'ol goose egg for tithing this year as in the past. I will gladly stand before the judgement bar and explain my reasoning on this lie. It's not quite up to the level of "No, Herr Commandant, there are no Jews hiding in my attic." But there is an implied threat on you if you tell your bishop, "I am not a full tithe payer."

Your life will not be threatened. But you will first be shamed by your bishop in front of your family. You could lose your temple recommend and cause heartache at the next sealing you can't attend, particularly if/when it is your own child. You will lose social status in your religious community. You will lose respect from your spouse, your parents, your siblings, your children, your ward members, and anyone else that will quickly believe that your loss of a temple recommend comes from use of porn, cocaine, and meth-addled prostitutes. I have complete respect for the numerous unbelievers that cast themselves into this crucible.

In addition, any good that might have been doing in your ward can quickly come under scrutiny. Did you enjoy mentoring the youth in your ward in a YM or YW leadership role? The LDS church wants full tithe payers teaching the youth. It's a particularly cynical move if you simply want to never be in leadership. If your status becomes known, and it will, shortly, your opinion will be passive aggressively undervalued in any Sunday School class you might participate in.

This is not some quiet issue of personal spirituality or worthiness that can be faced by honest reflection within your own soul. This is your spiritual life being tarred and feathered in front of an insular community. Marriages have ended over this. Family relationships have been cut off. Employment could be in jeopardy at times. "Not making your Mom cry" is widely acknowledged goal of the apostate community because we love our mothers, but too many mothers also love the LDS church.

I will return and report my own impending encounter with tithing settlement.
I fully support your choice for you. I should have been more clear. I know that my choice is not for everyone. I have paid a social price at church, but it is tempered by other benefits. Yes, my views are less accepted in SS and priesthood. Usually, I find those discussions to be as important as debating whether Superman has a super sense of humor, in any case. My niche is working for me right now.

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