Fear as motivating conservative values

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Emower
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Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by Emower » Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:56 am

I just read an interesting article, which is relevant to how politics play into how the brain works. This article talked about a study which sought to put people at ease within their imagination, and then asked them a bunch of political questions. Those who had been identified previously as conservative, once they had been put at ease, expressed significantly more liberal views in response to questions.
Link:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ins ... _2zh3_Usz8

Now, I am no social scientist, and I feel like there may be some leaps made here. I do know, however, that once I let go of the idea of Satan out to get me, my views shifted dramatically in regards to the church.

Apologeticsislying
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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by Apologeticsislying » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:37 am

I'm not worried anymore about the church's attempts at making it seem that it is Satan making us think differently than the church does, or that it is Satan who gets us to doubt, etc. This is simple brainwash, effect in many, far too many, cases, but ultimately silly. Satan, in the deep esoteric views, is actaully partners with God, helping his work move along. They are in cahoots together, which really bothers some. However, as I pondered that, I came to recognize an astonishing cosmic truth to this, and I have been utterly calm ever since. When someone accuses me that Satan is or has tempted me, I now say good! That is precisely as it should be. All is well with the cosmos after all. The truth is, without Satan's help, God wouldn't stand a chance of succeeding. That is a very deep and astonishingly beautiful thing once it hits you ..... meditate, you shall see. I have said too much.
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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alas
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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by alas » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:16 pm

Apologeticsislying wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:37 am
I'm not worried anymore about the church's attempts at making it seem that it is Satan making us think differently than the church does, or that it is Satan who gets us to doubt, etc. This is simple brainwash, effect in many, far too many, cases, but ultimately silly. Satan, in the deep esoteric views, is actaully partners with God, helping his work move along. They are in cahoots together, which really bothers some. However, as I pondered that, I came to recognize an astonishing cosmic truth to this, and I have been utterly calm ever since. When someone accuses me that Satan is or has tempted me, I now say good! That is precisely as it should be. All is well with the cosmos after all. The truth is, without Satan's help, God wouldn't stand a chance of succeeding. That is a very deep and astonishingly beautiful thing once it hits you ..... meditate, you shall see. I have said too much.
I don’t know. I had a friend who realized that God couldn’t do it without Satan, and ended up deciding that Satan is the God of this world and is the one we should be worshipping. She went fully into Satan worship before coming to her senses.

If you look at it as yin/yang rather than good and evil then you can accept that Satan is necessary without being good, but then I don’t look at Satan as a person or being, but just symbolically as the representation of evil. Satan is us, or is one aspect of every human being. Then you don’t have anything to be afraid of except your own stupid thinking.

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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by Apologeticsislying » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:16 pm

alas wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:16 pm
Apologeticsislying wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:37 am
I'm not worried anymore about the church's attempts at making it seem that it is Satan making us think differently than the church does, or that it is Satan who gets us to doubt, etc. This is simple brainwash, effect in many, far too many, cases, but ultimately silly. Satan, in the deep esoteric views, is actaully partners with God, helping his work move along. They are in cahoots together, which really bothers some. However, as I pondered that, I came to recognize an astonishing cosmic truth to this, and I have been utterly calm ever since. When someone accuses me that Satan is or has tempted me, I now say good! That is precisely as it should be. All is well with the cosmos after all. The truth is, without Satan's help, God wouldn't stand a chance of succeeding. That is a very deep and astonishingly beautiful thing once it hits you ..... meditate, you shall see. I have said too much.
I don’t know. I had a friend who realized that God couldn’t do it without Satan, and ended up deciding that Satan is the God of this world and is the one we should be worshipping. She went fully into Satan worship before coming to her senses.

If you look at it as yin/yang rather than good and evil then you can accept that Satan is necessary without being good, but then I don’t look at Satan as a person or being, but just symbolically as the representation of evil. Satan is us, or is one aspect of every human being. Then you don’t have anything to be afraid of except your own stupid thinking.
Absolutely close to perfect as you can get....... thanks for sharing!
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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Not Buying It
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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by Not Buying It » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:29 am

Much of what you see going on politically in the U.S. right now is motivated by fear. Those fears are not always named, spoken, or articulated, but without getting too political I will just say I am frankly horrified by what I see people willing to tolerate because they think their fears are being taken care of. Just about every demagogue ever rose to power on a wave of fear.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by Just This Guy » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:49 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:29 am
Much of what you see going on politically in the U.S. right now is motivated by fear. Those fears are not always named, spoken, or articulated, but without getting too political I will just say I am frankly horrified by what I see people willing to tolerate because they think their fears are being taken care of. Just about every demagogue ever rose to power on a wave of fear.

Fear based politics one of the biggest drivers in modern politics and BOTH sides are pushing it hard. One side says that the other will raise taxes. The other says the first will cut benefits. To some degree it has always been a part of politics, but in modern times, it is cranked up to 11.

Politics is the fine art of convincing people to take certain actions and fear is a GREAT way to do it, if you don't care of the fallout afterwards. It seams to have become so integrated in the US system that no one seams to know how to operate without it.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:06 am

Can I be the devil's advocate for a minute?

I'm as left as they come, bordering on democratic socialist (I'm Canadian, after all) and I voted for the Green party in the last federal election held a couple of weeks ago. So you know, I have some investment on this idea that conservatives are into fear - and sure they are, "traditional, family values" are often seen as the tonic to the world's ills, which are encroaching on our freedoms, (insert the Charlie Brown teacher blah blah blah blah voice here) and I hear this crap constantly at church from all the old conservatives. They are absolutely invested in creating a culture of fear, so that their conservative solutions will fix all the problems. Which is nonsense.

But listen, those on the right don't have a monopoly on the politics of fear. I have a friend on the left who is CONSTANTLY going on about how the planet is going to be destroyed in 11 years if something isn't done to combat it. Her Facebook wall is full of these rather hysterical lines on how Trump is the anti-Christ and is leading America into civil war. The politics of fear serves her leftist position just as well. Indeed, from an outsider's view of what's happening in your country right now, both sides of the ideological divide are completely invested in the politics of fear. For some reason, Sis M is really not a Trump fan, and I'll come home to her watching CNN, and I'm absolutely shocked how some panel is dissecting the latest bullcrap tweet from your commander-in-chief, as if it's a signal to all the white nationalists to take over. Listen, I certainly wouldn't vote for him, but the vilification of your President is as over the top as the worship of him from the ET Benson, freedom forum writin', deznat-crazy LDS crowd. BOTH use fear to prove their political points.

It's not unlike every time I go on to exmormon reddit - the "burn it down" crowd are as crazy as any TBM I've ever listened to. Just my two cents!
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"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:42 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:49 am
Not Buying It wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:29 am
Much of what you see going on politically in the U.S. right now is motivated by fear. Those fears are not always named, spoken, or articulated, but without getting too political I will just say I am frankly horrified by what I see people willing to tolerate because they think their fears are being taken care of. Just about every demagogue ever rose to power on a wave of fear.

Fear based politics one of the biggest drivers in modern politics and BOTH sides are pushing it hard. One side says that the other will raise taxes. The other says the first will cut benefits. To some degree it has always been a part of politics, but in modern times, it is cranked up to 11.

Politics is the fine art of convincing people to take certain actions and fear is a GREAT way to do it, if you don't care of the fallout afterwards. It seams to have become so integrated in the US system that no one seams to know how to operate without it.
It's beyond the threat or promise of messing with taxes. The conservative influences weaponized social issues like women's writes (abortion). They stir up the religious conservative sheep and beat their heads with these issues. The war on drugs was used against the public in general to keep them in fear and spend billions of dollars on absolute crap for the DEA or Homeland security; what a joke! Both parties use these tricks to keep the public polarized in the two party system and the public loses either way because it's just about job preservation in Fed and State governments, not about really solving any problems. Religions and governments behave in very similar ways and it's all about tribalism and control.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:32 am

Love this thread.

Reminds me to go back and listen to the Infants On Thrones podcast where Satan takes his ball home and quits.

Weirdly the church members give too much credit to satan in regards to temptation and thus he becomes the glue that sticks people to the Gospel.

Joe Rogan just recently had Richard Dawkins on his podcasts and they have a very fascinating conversation about it.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:18 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:32 am

Joe Rogan just recently had Richard Dawkins on his podcasts and they have a very fascinating conversation about it.
Well now, that podcast played directly into my POV! Thanks for mentioning it!
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by Emower » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:31 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:32 am
Weirdly the church members give too much credit to satan in regards to temptation and thus he becomes the glue that sticks people to the Gospel.
Yup. I didnt mean for this to become a political focused thread, but I think it is fascinating that when I let go of Satan as a motivating factor in my life, I was able to break with the ideas that held me to the church. And its fascinating that it extends to politics too, but there is not really a difference in my mind anymore between politics and religion.
Mormorrisey wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:06 am
But listen, those on the right don't have a monopoly on the politics of fear.
No they dont, but as the article pointed out, conservatism relies much more heavily on it than does the left as a decision making force, and that was borne out in several demonstrations.

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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by 1smartdodog » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:20 am

I use to think Jesus was going to come and fix everything. There was some comfort in knowing that no matter how bad we let Satan screw things up it would all end well.

So now I realize it is all up to us and we are not doing nearly as good a job as we could. Are we going to make it all work out? That is sort of scary to think about.



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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by 1smartdodog » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:29 am

That article was totally bogus. It did not take much effort to poke holes in it. If you talk about conservative hot button issues of course they would get scared. You could easily flip that around and scare liberals.

Both sides are scary in their own right. To bad compromise and rational communication are not the norm. Everyone is throwing fear bombs around.


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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by Palerider » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:54 am

1smartdodog wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:29 am
That article was totally bogus. It did not take much effort to poke holes in it. If you talk about conservative hot button issues of course they would get scared. You could easily flip that around and scare liberals.

Both sides are scary in their own right. To bad compromise and rational communication are not the norm. Everyone is throwing fear bombs around.


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I read part of the article and came to the same conclusion. Research has to be verified on a couple of different levels in order to be valid. How a survey is put together, how the questions are stated, how the sampling is arranged all have to be correct before you can draw any valid conclusions.

But I purposefully decided not to get into the weeds on this thread because I thought NOM was supposed to be soley for social support and religious discussion. So I ignore a LOT of comments here about "the orange man" and other derogatory statements.

But here I go diving in where I told myself I was not going to. :roll:

I think conservatives and liberals both really want the same thing. They just disagree on the method of getting there. For a long time I've seen conservatives as representing "Justice" and liberals as representing "Mercy". But I've also seen both sides constantly twist and corrupt those concepts/principles for their own selfish purposes.

The U.S. is already in a "civil" war. How long it will continue to be civil remains to be seen. I don't see anyone on either side calming down and I don't expect to.
But what can the average citizen do? Write a letter to ones congressman? Go vote in an election? After that you're reduced to making techy bumper stickers and stupid stuff up for Facebook. :oops:

Well, now that I've stuck my foot in it, I'm going back to my "don't get involved in politics on NOM" policy.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by Emower » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:46 am

Palerider wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:54 am
But I purposefully decided not to get into the weeds on this thread because I thought NOM was supposed to be soley for social support and religious discussion. So I ignore a LOT of comments here about "the orange man" and other derogatory statements.

Alright, I will take this one on the chin. I should have titled this differently, and wrote it differently. I agree, the article and the research associated has holes in it. But, I posted because it reminded me of the religious tendency I noticed in myself of Satan being integral to my religious motivation.

Does this hold true for most people here? Who believes in Satan (as a person out to get you individually), who doesnt, and who does it matter to and why? Do you folks agree that losing the Satan personification kind of chops the enforcement aspect of religions out? I think it does less for Mormonism than for others because of the degrees of glory stuff. This is more the conversation I was angling for, and should have been more clear about, sorry.

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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by Not Buying It » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:45 am

Palerider wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:54 am
1smartdodog wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:29 am
That article was totally bogus. It did not take much effort to poke holes in it. If you talk about conservative hot button issues of course they would get scared. You could easily flip that around and scare liberals.

Both sides are scary in their own right. To bad compromise and rational communication are not the norm. Everyone is throwing fear bombs around.


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I read part of the article and came to the same conclusion. Research has to be verified on a couple of different levels in order to be valid. How a survey is put together, how the questions are stated, how the sampling is arranged all have to be correct before you can draw any valid conclusions.

But I purposefully decided not to get into the weeds on this thread because I thought NOM was supposed to be soley for social support and religious discussion. So I ignore a LOT of comments here about "the orange man" and other derogatory statements.

But here I go diving in where I told myself I was not going to. :roll:

I think conservatives and liberals both really want the same thing. They just disagree on the method of getting there. For a long time I've seen conservatives as representing "Justice" and liberals as representing "Mercy". But I've also seen both sides constantly twist and corrupt those concepts/principles for their own selfish purposes.

The U.S. is already in a "civil" war. How long it will continue to be civil remains to be seen. I don't see anyone on either side calming down and I don't expect to.
But what can the average citizen do? Write a letter to ones congressman? Go vote in an election? After that you're reduced to making techy bumper stickers and stupid stuff up for Facebook. :oops:

Well, now that I've stuck my foot in it, I'm going back to my "don't get involved in politics on NOM" policy.
I take issue with anyone using the words "civil war" these days. That's a dangerous phrase to be throwing around, and some politicians have been extremely irresponsible in using it. But you used the phrase "civil" war, so I'll ignore it.

But you know, I don't believe conservatives and liberals both really want the same thing. Not all of them anyway. Conservatives, in the traditional sense of the term, don't like change. For many (but not all) conservatives, what they want to see is the maintenance and perpetuation of traditional power structures. That is certainly the case in the South, which leans conservative in part because there are a large number of whites who want to maintain the traditional power structures there. And that's not opinion - it is indisputable that there is still a considerable amount of racism in the South, heldover from the days of Jim Crow (and far too much racism in the North too, let's be fair) - and maintaining the status quo is an inherently conservative position. To a certain kind of Southerner, conservatism means avoiding change that promotes equality. My point is that a certain type of Southern conservative wants very different things than most liberals. Please don't misunderstand and think I am saying all conservatives are racists, that is not what I mean. What I mean is that conservatism generally is resistant to change, but in order to improve racial equity, there has to be some change in existing structures - change which, in the case of some Southern conservatives, is the opposite of what they want. Conversely, to a certain type of liberal, dismantling economic disparity between the mega-rich and the rest of us is seen as paramount, which is very different than what most conservatives want. Again, that would require changing existing structures, which runs counter to the basic principles of conservatism. Those are just two of many examples.

Without question, it is simplifying the issue far too much stating it the way I have, but at the end of the day, I don't think conservative and liberals want the same things, I really don't. There are several key issues - racial and economic equity being among them - where they want vastly different things for the most part, and where what they want hinges on changes to existing power structures that they have very different views of. They are not by any stretch of the imagination shooting at the same target from different vantage points.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by Palerider » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:29 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:45 am

I take issue with anyone using the words "civil war" these days. That's a dangerous phrase to be throwing around, and some politicians have been extremely irresponsible in using it. But you used the phrase "civil" war, so I'll ignore it.

But you know, I don't believe conservatives and liberals both really want the same thing. Not all of them anyway. Conservatives, in the traditional sense of the term, don't like change. For many (but not all) conservatives, what they want to see is the maintenance and perpetuation of traditional power structures. That is certainly the case in the South, which leans conservative in part because there are a large number of whites who want to maintain the traditional power structures there. And that's not opinion - it is indisputable that there is still a considerable amount of racism in the South, heldover from the days of Jim Crow (and far too much racism in the North too, let's be fair) - and maintaining the status quo is an inherently conservative position. To a certain kind of Southerner, conservatism means avoiding change that promotes equality. My point is that a certain type of Southern conservative wants very different things than most liberals. Please don't misunderstand and think I am saying all conservatives are racists, that is not what I mean. What I mean is that conservatism generally is resistant to change, but in order to improve racial equity, there has to be some change in existing structures - change which, in the case of some Southern conservatives, is the opposite of what they want. Conversely, to a certain type of liberal, dismantling economic disparity between the mega-rich and the rest of us is seen as paramount, which is very different than what most conservatives want. Again, that would require changing existing structures, which runs counter to the basic principles of conservatism. Those are just two of many examples.

Without question, it is simplifying the issue far too much stating it the way I have, but at the end of the day, I don't think conservative and liberals want the same things, I really don't. There are several key issues - racial and economic equity being among them - where they want vastly different things for the most part, and where what they want hinges on changes to existing power structures that they have very different views of. They are not by any stretch of the imagination shooting at the same target from different vantage points.

As I said, I don't think NOM is the place for a political debate and I made the mistake of even offering an opinion here.

So without taking this any further let me just say, I disagree with your post.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by Rob4Hope » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:10 pm

I'm grateful for Satan. Without that, I wouldn't have discovered how easily I am controlled by fear--which is what was interesting on this thread.

Now that I know fear has many catalysts, I can steer clear better.

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Re: Fear as motivating conservative values

Post by Anon70 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:38 am

I used to talk about Satan like he was real but deep down I thought it was a little silly, like believing in the bogeyman.

Like others, when I lost belief in God/Christ then Satan belief died too.

When I started down this path a few years ago I definitely realized and acknowledged that my fear based guilt and quest for perfection and 100% fulfillment of duty died. I do see fear as a tool the church absolutely uses to control (EX: fear of losing eternal family, fear of loss of eternal life, etc) if you don’t comply.

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