Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

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misterfake371
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Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by misterfake371 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:14 pm

I want to be Catholic, but my wife wants me to stay Mormon. She wants me to read anti-Catholic literature just like I read anti-Mormon literature a long time ago. So... do you have any recommendations? Or do you have any arguments against Catholicism?
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

Mackman
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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by Mackman » Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:46 am

I dont have anti Catholic literature but when we were first married (not mormon yet) we attended the catholic church . My wife was Catholic from a child I was just a heathen, my Mom took us to church once a year whatever church was close to our house it didnt matter my mom would say they are all the same. Back to your point I know at least when I attended we were discouraged from reading the scriptures so we wouldnt misinterprete them more like you should ask your priest so you get it right. Catholics also believe the Pope is infallible. I never did. All in all it is somewhat similar to the mormon church in that local congregations have no autonomy and you are suppose to attend the church within your geographical boundaries. Not trying to sway you either way just letting you know from experiences.

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Just This Guy
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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:48 am

You could start with Martin Luther's 95 Theses. Probably the first great anti-catholic work, back in 1483. How much of that applies to the modern Catholic church, I don't know.
https://www.luther.de/en/95thesen.html

A lot of it comes down to how different people read the scriptures and take on divine authority.
https://carm.org/catholic/is-catholicism-christian

A lot of the criticism is about it's size, wealth, and power as well as the influence (real and perceived) that it has over leaders and government. YOu have to atleast take a lot of this was some critical thinking because this can commonly get into conspiracy territory pretty fast.

There also is the issue of sexual abuse by priests.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_ ... buse_cases
http://origins.osu.edu/article/catholic ... iests-nuns

You could make the case that the BOM is anti-catholic materiel as well.
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Palerider
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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by Palerider » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:51 am

I'm sure there are many more problems but for starters I could never be a part of an organization that baptizes infants. The LDS faith is bad enough baptizing eight year olds but baptizing an infant is even worse. Baptism is supposed to be for those capable of repentance and the remission of sins. How can an infant commit sin?

At least part of Martin Luther's issue with the church was the selling of "indulgences". It was actually a great money making scheme for Catholicism. Want to go out and tie one on with a beauty that's not your wife? Just let your local priest know you want an indulgence and donate $500 to the church and you get the green light and forgiveness all in one package. What a deal!

How could any Pope claiming authority believe God would be alright with that?

If you're just looking for a fairly conservative church to join that isn't any more true than any other church, then Catholicism might be a way to go. But one shouldn't kid themselves that it's the "true" church.

ETA: This might be a good place to start.

https://carm.org/catholic/list-of-roman ... -teachings
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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alas
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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by alas » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:07 am

Palerider wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:51 am
I'm sure there are many more problems but for starters I could never be a part of an organization that baptizes infants. The LDS faith is bad enough baptizing eight year olds but baptizing an infant is even worse. Baptism is supposed to be for those capable of repentance and the remission of sins. How can an infant commit sin?

At least part of Martin Luther's issue with the church was the selling of "indulgences". It was actually a great money making scheme for Catholicism. Want to go out and tie one on with a beauty that's not your wife? Just let your local priest know you want an indulgence and donate $500 to the church and you get the green light and forgiveness all in one package. What a deal!

How could any Pope claiming authority believe God would be alright with that?

If you're just looking for a fairly conservative church to join that isn't any more true than any other church, then Catholicism might be a way to go. But one shouldn't kid themselves that it's the "true" church.

ETA: This might be a good place to start.

https://carm.org/catholic/list-of-roman ... -teachings
I agree with the idea here that if you are not looking for “TRUTH” but just looking for a church you are comfortable in, then the Catholic Church is as good as any other.

The problem is communicating this to your spouse who is still stuck in the Mormon idea that there is one true church with me true magical authority to act in the name of God. According to “the one true church” theory” there is one true authority. The Catholics claim to have it and the Mormons claim to have it. If the apostasy is true, then the Catholics lost it. If the apostasy is not true the Catholics claim might be good and they have the only true authority.

But once you get out of that binary thinking, maybe there is no authority that God grants to his favorite people. Maybe the true authority is based on real righteousness and not handed down from one person to another no matter the righteousness. According to the Mormon claim, the Catholics had it and lost it because as individuals became unrighteous, they lost it. But what about the Mormon claim then? We pretend that if one individual is unrighteous, it doesn’t matter. The ordinances done by a priesthood holder, and then later they find out the guy is committing adultery or molesting kids, those ordinances are still considered good as if priesthood *isn’t* lost because of unrighteousness. So, which is it, Mormons? The Protestants claim to believe in a priesthood of all believers, so given to anybody according to their righteousness. The *real* way priesthood works may not be any of those models. If I was God, I would not give my power to stupid mortals, so there is that idea too. Maybe the “authority to act in the name of God” is just something people claim to claim more power than every body else. Maybe there IS NO priesthood.

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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by Palerider » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:42 pm

alas wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:07 am

I agree with the idea here that if you are not looking for “TRUTH” but just looking for a church you are comfortable in, then the Catholic Church is as good as any other.

The problem is communicating this to your spouse who is still stuck in the Mormon idea that there is one true church with me true magical authority to act in the name of God. According to “the one true church” theory” there is one true authority. The Catholics claim to have it and the Mormons claim to have it. If the apostasy is true, then the Catholics lost it. If the apostasy is not true the Catholics claim might be good and they have the only true authority.

But once you get out of that binary thinking, maybe there is no authority that God grants to his favorite people. Maybe the true authority is based on real righteousness and not handed down from one person to another no matter the righteousness. According to the Mormon claim, the Catholics had it and lost it because as individuals became unrighteous, they lost it. But what about the Mormon claim then? We pretend that if one individual is unrighteous, it doesn’t matter. The ordinances done by a priesthood holder, and then later they find out the guy is committing adultery or molesting kids, those ordinances are still considered good as if priesthood *isn’t* lost because of unrighteousness. So, which is it, Mormons? The Protestants claim to believe in a priesthood of all believers, so given to anybody according to their righteousness. The *real* way priesthood works may not be any of those models. If I was God, I would not give my power to stupid mortals, so there is that idea too. Maybe the “authority to act in the name of God” is just something people claim to claim more power than every body else. Maybe there IS NO priesthood.
As I understand it, mf371's spouse wants him to "stay Mormon". I think explaining to her that proving the Catholic Church to be "false" (for want of a better word) doesn't make the Mormon church true, would be a place to start. I suppose a compromise could be reached by saying in essence, "I'll attend the Mormon church as long as I can declare myself a non-believer, don't have to accept any assignments and don't have to pay tithing. Can you live with that dear?" Something to think about...

Regarding the LDS priesthood, I'm sure in their mind, leadership/god accepts a certain amount of deviance either in execution of the ordinances or righteousness of the individual at the local level as part of the nature of the beast. At the local level, all can eventually be corrected. Where they draw the line is at the church corporate level where the big "KEYS" are retained as a prophylactic against "global" or church wide deviance. And we all know that those keys can never be lost for it is impossible for the prophet to lead the church astray. God just won't allow that to happen.

Which brings up the question.....Why did God allow that to happen in the ancient church if it is so easily prevented? Did He WANT an Apostasy?

Or is it possible that rather than the church needing a restoration, the "church" is actually still among the peoples of the earth, but not in an organized form? What if the church is actually found in the hearts of the righteous all across the world? Both in and out of organized religions.

There are "restoration" scriptures in the Bible, but they are ALL subject to interpretation. ANY of them can (and actually do) read as the church being restored AFTER the Second Coming. After 2000 years in near darkness, as the LDS church would put it, why is it suddenly so critical that the church must be restored BEFORE the Second Coming????

Does it really take an organized religion to "prepare" a people to meet the Savior? Can't God accomplish this by himself if He wants to? There is more than sufficient knowledge in the Biblical scriptures for salvation. And more than enough Grace and Mercy for those in the world who have yet to read them. God can accomplish this by His own methods. He doesn't need secret handshakes, whispered passwords and phony anointings to get it done.

All God needs is someone who hungers and thirsts after righteousness in their hearts. The rest can be worked out in God's own way, place and time.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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alas
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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by alas » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:57 pm

Palerider wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:42 pm
alas wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:07 am

I agree with the idea here that if you are not looking for “TRUTH” but just looking for a church you are comfortable in, then the Catholic Church is as good as any other.

The problem is communicating this to your spouse who is still stuck in the Mormon idea that there is one true church with me true magical authority to act in the name of God. According to “the one true church” theory” there is one true authority. The Catholics claim to have it and the Mormons claim to have it. If the apostasy is true, then the Catholics lost it. If the apostasy is not true the Catholics claim might be good and they have the only true authority.

But once you get out of that binary thinking, maybe there is no authority that God grants to his favorite people. Maybe the true authority is based on real righteousness and not handed down from one person to another no matter the righteousness. According to the Mormon claim, the Catholics had it and lost it because as individuals became unrighteous, they lost it. But what about the Mormon claim then? We pretend that if one individual is unrighteous, it doesn’t matter. The ordinances done by a priesthood holder, and then later they find out the guy is committing adultery or molesting kids, those ordinances are still considered good as if priesthood *isn’t* lost because of unrighteousness. So, which is it, Mormons? The Protestants claim to believe in a priesthood of all believers, so given to anybody according to their righteousness. The *real* way priesthood works may not be any of those models. If I was God, I would not give my power to stupid mortals, so there is that idea too. Maybe the “authority to act in the name of God” is just something people claim to claim more power than every body else. Maybe there IS NO priesthood.
As I understand it, mf371's spouse wants him to "stay Mormon". I think explaining to her that proving the Catholic Church to be "false" (for want of a better word) doesn't make the Mormon church true, would be a place to start. I suppose a compromise could be reached by saying in essence, "I'll attend the Mormon church as long as I can declare myself a non-believer, don't have to accept any assignments and don't have to pay tithing. Can you live with that dear?"

Regarding the LDS priesthood, I'm sure in their mind, leadership/god accepts a certain amount of deviance either in execution of the ordinance or righteousness of the individual at the local level as part of the nature of the beast. At the local level, all can eventually be corrected. Where they draw the line is at the church corporate level where the big "KEYS" are retained as a prophylactic against "global" or church wide deviance. And we all know that those keys can never be lost for it is impossible for the prophet to lead the church astray. God just won't allow that to happen.

Which brings up the question.....Why did God allow that to happen in the ancient church if it is so easily prevented? Did He WANT an Apostacy? Or is it possible that the "church" is actually still among the peoples of the earth, but not in an organized form? What if the church is actually found in the hearts of the righteous all across the world? Both in and out of organized religions.

There are "restoration" scriptures in the Bible, but they are ALL subject to interpretation. ANY of them can (and actually do) read as the church being restored AFTER the Second Coming. After 2000 years in near darkness, as the LDS church would put it, why is it suddenly so critical that the church must be restored BEFORE the Second Coming????

Does it really take an organized religion to "prepare" a people to meet the Savior? Can't God accomplish this by himself if He wants to? There is more than sufficient knowledge in the Biblical scriptures for salvation. And more than enough Grace and Mercy for those in the world who have yet to read them. God can accomplish this by His own methods. He doesn't need secret handshakes, whispered passwords and phony anointings to get it done.

All God needs is someone who hungers and thirsts after righteousness in their hearts. The rest can be worked out in God's own way, place and time.
This is such a good description of why I don’t like the Mormon church. It pretends that God is so helpless that he needs secret passwords to recognize his own children, and since everybody ever born is his children, why is that even a thing? And he needs words said over them as they are dunked in water? If baptism doesn’t mean something to the person being baptized, then it means nothing. It baptism is meaningful, then it should be symbolism that is meaningful to the dunkee. Same with the temple. If the symbolism is so mysterious that it mean something different to different people or symbolism that has no meaning what so ever, then it is totally meaningless. God sure doesn’t need it.

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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by Wonderment » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:05 pm

misterfake371 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:14 pm
I want to be Catholic, but my wife wants me to stay Mormon. She wants me to read anti-Catholic literature just like I read anti-Mormon literature a long time ago. So... do you have any recommendations? Or do you have any arguments against Catholicism?
Why do you want to be Catholic, and what is it about the Roman Catholic church that leads you to believe it is true ?
What is it about the Catholic church that attracts you?
Which parts of COJCOLDS theology do you disagree with?
How much do you know about Catholicism?

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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by misterfake371 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:07 am

post deleted
Last edited by misterfake371 on Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by misterfake371 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:07 am

Wonderment wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:05 pm
misterfake371 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:14 pm
I want to be Catholic, but my wife wants me to stay Mormon. She wants me to read anti-Catholic literature just like I read anti-Mormon literature a long time ago. So... do you have any recommendations? Or do you have any arguments against Catholicism?
Why do you want to be Catholic, and what is it about the Roman Catholic church that leads you to believe it is true ?
What is it about the Catholic church that attracts you?
Which parts of COJCOLDS theology do you disagree with?
How much do you know about Catholicism?
I want to be Catholic because I feel like God is drawing me there. I believe in Jesus, and the Catholic Church was the first Christian denomination, so it seems to me to be the most likely to be the one Jesus founded. The Catholic Church has the oldest churches and Christian relics and Christian organization on the planet. Catholics themselves attract me to Catholicism. I'm probably going to get some people mad here, but, I'm a socially conservative type of guy. I'm a pro-life, pro-traditional-family Republican. I like the opinions of Matt Walsh and Dr. Taylor Marshall and I watched the movie "Unplanned" about Abby Johnson and Planned Parenthood, and those people are all faithful Catholics. I love Mother Theresa. Also, I've googled "incorruptible Saints" and "eucharistic miracles."

What parts of COJCOLDS theology do I disagree with? Uh... hello! Joseph Smith made up Mormonism! He lied a lot. I'm not going to base my beliefs off of lies.

How much do I know about Catholicism? Well, I read a book by Mother Theresa, I've read about half of the latest Catechism of the Catholic Church, and about 200 pages of a book called "The Faith Explained" which is like an introduction to Catholicism. (It's hard for me to finish books. LOL.) I've listened to Catholic Radio a lot over the past few years. I've also felt that I need to not just learn about the faith logically, but I need to learn about it from faithful action and from experience, so I've attended mass for a couple of months and I've been praying the rosary daily for the past 4 or 5 months. I only missed one day praying the rosary. Does that answer your questions?
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by misterfake371 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:21 am

alas wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:07 am
If baptism doesn’t mean something to the person being baptized, then it means nothing. It baptism is meaningful, then it should be symbolism that is meaningful to the dunkee.
I believe people benefit from being prayed for. People who are totally unaware that they are being prayed for, and people who do not even believe in the power of prayer, still benefit from prayer. Similarly, babies benefit from baptism, even though they don't get what's going on when they get baptized.

In a way, I understood what marriage was before I got married, and the wedding ceremony was meaningful to me at the time, but I understand it more even more now that I've been married for 13 years. I appreciate weddings a lot more now that I'm older. Likewise, cradle Catholics come to appreciate baptism, both in general and in the particular case of their own baptism, a lot more later when they grow and understand it more.

Plus, the Catholic teaching is that everyone born into the world is guilty of original sin, and baptism remits that sin. So baptism benefits babies, even though they don't understand it at the time. And Christ taught that everyone should get baptized.

And, I'll post this in case you feel like reading it. https://www.catholic.com/tract/infant-baptism It's from a Catholic apologetic site, Catholic.com, which is a whole lot better than FairMormon.org.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

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alas
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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by alas » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:11 am

misterfake371 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:21 am
alas wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:07 am
If baptism doesn’t mean something to the person being baptized, then it means nothing. It baptism is meaningful, then it should be symbolism that is meaningful to the dunkee.
I believe people benefit from being prayed for. People who are totally unaware that they are being prayed for, and people who do not even believe in the power of prayer, still benefit from prayer. Similarly, babies benefit from baptism, even though they don't get what's going on when they get baptized.

In a way, I understood what marriage was before I got married, and the wedding ceremony was meaningful to me at the time, but I understand it more even more now that I've been married for 13 years. I appreciate weddings a lot more now that I'm older. Likewise, cradle Catholics come to appreciate baptism, both in general and in the particular case of their own baptism, a lot more later when they grow and understand it more.

Plus, the Catholic teaching is that everyone born into the world is guilty of original sin, and baptism remits that sin. So baptism benefits babies, even though they don't understand it at the time. And Christ taught that everyone should get baptized.

And, I'll post this in case you feel like reading it. https://www.catholic.com/tract/infant-baptism It's from a Catholic apologetic site, Catholic.com, which is a whole lot better than FairMormon.org.
I do understand the Catholic concept of baptism and understand the importance of infant baptism from that perspective. It was not at all Catholic baptism that my comment attacked, but Mormon’s concept that an eight year old is old enough to understand what they are promising. There is a world of difference in what Mormons believe about original sin and what Catholics believe. But they both baptize at an age that is too young to comprehend. The Catholics are 100% right in how they baptize according to their belief system. Mormons believe and preach one thing and do another.

So, I am sorry that you wanted to discuss Catholicism and we kept arguing about how wrong Mormonism is. We get into that bad habit around here.

But we have tried to say that if Catholicism gives you peace, then go for it. Really. You don’t have to justify it to us. You don’t have to justify it to your wife other than to say that it is what you believe to be most correct and what you find the most peace and comfort in.

Of course there is anti catholic literature out there, but I don’t think you need to read it to prove anything to your wife. Mormonism is actually anti Catholic, so if you were raised Mormon you were raised with the echos of “Catholic church is the great and abominable”. If you were raised Mormon, you have already heard the anti Catholic argument that a restoration was needed. Try Bruce McConkie if you have not heard those arguments. You already know the best arguments in favor and if that makes more sense to you than Bruce R McC, then you are a good fit for Catholicism.

If you feel “at home” in the Catholic Church, then that is the only answer you need. Go for it.

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moksha
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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by moksha » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:03 am

Here is some literature on an anti-nature: http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/417/
The above is no way representative of or endorsed by any NOMinees.
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Palerider
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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by Palerider » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:41 am

misterfake371 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:07 am
I'm probably going to get some people mad here, but, I'm a socially conservative type of guy. I'm a pro-life, pro-traditional-family Republican.....

What parts of COJCOLDS theology do I disagree with? Uh... hello! Joseph Smith made up Mormonism! He lied a lot. I'm not going to base my beliefs off of lies.
I've found most people here to be fairly tolerant of NOMs who have a conservative bent as long as one doesn't get preachy or heavy handed. I'm quite conservative and I still consider myself a believing Christian. In the years since I left the church I haven't found any organized religion that felt comfortable to me so I don't currently attend.

Just as there are some good qualities in the Mormon church, I believe there are some in other Christian iterations including the Catholic Church. But if you're looking for a church that has no "lies" involved in the organization you may have to go a long, long way.

And maybe God IS leading you towards the Catholic faith. You may feel comfortable there and learn some important things there for a time.

The Mormon faith was the predominant religion where I was born and I actually give it credit for introducing me to Christ but when a person grows beyond the stunted, shriveling, false doctrines that all churches seem to have Incorporated, one should feel little obligation to remain "loyal" for the sake of the principle of loyalty. Especially if a church refuses to acknowledge it's failings.

Failure by leadership to acknowledge and correct the problems in a religious organization is a sign that truth is not the ultimate and undergirding principle sought for in that religion.

Something less savory has taken it's place.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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2bizE
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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by 2bizE » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:12 pm

Look at the First edition of Mormon Doctrine.
https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/index.php?t ... Conkie.pdf
~2bizE

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oliver_denom
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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by oliver_denom » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:54 pm

If academic history is anti-Mormon, then I imagine the same sort of stuff would pass as anti-Catholic. The difference you'll find is that Catholicism has moved past the stage where academics is considered a threat. Yes, you'll have very conservative traditions within the church that will decry academia as atheistic lies, but the pope isn't going to come down on you for accepting higher criticisms of the Bible. They have their own set of problems, but they aren't as fragile as Mormonism.
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Raylan Givens
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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by Raylan Givens » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:09 pm

I like the really cool cathedrals and some of the ritual. But, being Catholic, can’t think of a better way to get a guilt complex...

Perhaps read Ken Follet’s, The Pillars of the Earth. This book first put into my head the idea that religion is a to control and manipulate people.

Or the new movie on Netflix, The King. I would also look up Catholic Churches involvement in the rise of Nazi party etc.
"Ah, you know, I think you use the Bible to do whatever the hell you like" - Raylan Givens

20/20hind
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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by 20/20hind » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:25 am

Catholics drink out of the same sacrament cup... gross! Yeah they wipe it, but seriously disturbing. That was enough for me to gtfo.

Mormons are just as bad. When i was tbm i sat as close to the front as possible. Less chance of a mom letting their 4 year old with green boogers try and put their sacrament cup away after drinking half of it and bombing the full ones with booger juice.

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oliblish
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Re: Anti-Catholic Litertature Wanted

Post by oliblish » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:07 am

There is an Ex-Catholic forum on reddit that seems similar to the exmormon one. Some of the current posts are:

Is traditional Catholicism growing bigger in size as traditional Catholics like to claim?
I can’t seem to shake the guilt for being gay that catholicism has left me with
Pittsburgh Diocese to Close 75% of Parishes (75%!)
Not sure how to raise my kid(s)
Catholic high school made students download an app to keep track of when they masturbate

Seems all too familiar...

https://www.reddit.com/r/excatholic/
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