Turning Christains into Atheists

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Just This Guy
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Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Just This Guy » Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:31 pm

This article does a good job summarizing the problem with Christianity, including mormonism, in the US and why it is dying.

https://johnpavlovitz.com/2017/06/04/th ... -atheists/

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Newme
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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Newme » Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:46 pm

I may agree that “this God may be toxic.” But then it depends on how you define God. Generally, human sacrifice scapegoating is toxic. But I wouldn’t throw out the entire Christianity just because the Catholic Inquisition, Crusades and other corruption twisted scripture.

The author claimed, “With every persecution of the LGBTQ community, with every unprovoked attack on Muslims, with every planet-wrecking decision, with every regressive civil rights move—the flight from Christianity continues.” Those are quite some accusations with not one example as proof, but acts as if it is the main reason less people attend church. What about simply not believing it, or people getting their religious community online more - as we are now?

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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Palerider » Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:30 pm

The article is pretty much just a stated opinion as Newme said. And it's painted with a pretty broad brush. That doesn't make it entirely wrong.....or right either. For being so down on Christians who are judgemental the author is being pretty condemning himself.

On the other hand it would be nice to be able to have an honest, thoughtful, truthful discussion regarding the issues that are raised.

Unfortunately, in the hyper-exercized political and cultural climate in which we currently find ourselves, I think a discussion of that nature is entirely impossible. Very few people, especially those who seem to love the cameras or internet attention, want to really listen to the other side of any argument right now. "Winning" is what is important regardless of the cost.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Hagoth
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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Hagoth » Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:14 pm

He says,
And that’s the greatest irony of it all; that the very Evangelicals who’ve spent that last 50 years in this country demonizing those who reject Jesus—are now the single most compelling reason for them to do so. They are giving people who suspect that all Christians are self-righteous, hateful hypocrites, all the evidence they need. The Church is confirming the outside world’s most dire suspicions about itself.
This by no means describes Christians in general, but it does capture the tone the loud-mouthed, self-righteous minority who are turning people away from Christianity. Sometimes I feel like some of them are intentionally trying to offend people and push people away; sort of a more for me attitude. I heard one Evangelical explain that the more sinners suffering in hell the sweeter heaven will be for him.

I tend to believe that the loudness and proudness with which someone proclaims their Christianity is pretty much inversely proportional to their degree of genuine inward Christianity. There are many, many good Christians out there who don't wear it on their sleeve as a challenge or condemnation. And there are also many non-Christians who live more Christ-like lives than many self-proclaimed followers of Jesus.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by moksha » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:35 am

I think Progressive Christianity is pretty life-affirming and Universalism distributes God's love to all.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Just This Guy » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:30 am

Last Saturday, A local town's library was hosting Drag Queen Story Hour. Men in drag come in and read to children. When this was announced, the local "Christian" community s*** a brick. A former state politician mounted a huge campaign about how these drag queens were trying to pervert make children gay and called on the Christain churches to protest this, al the while saying this as an affront to the bible. Death threats were called into against the Queens and people were calling the library threatening to shoot it up. In the end, they ended up having to cancel the event due to the police not sure they could control the crowd expected. Good Christians?

https://www.thedaonline.com/news/morgan ... 0406e.html

In my last job, one of my fellow managers was Muslim. I can't tell you the number of times I heard people mumble all your traditional racist, islamiphoic taglines from people behind his back. Anytime someone got in trouble, they would always blame the "terrorist", not because they messed up something. The worst ones were the ones that would wear christian themed t-shits and crosses off plant (we didn't allow necklaces on the floor) and have the church themed bumper stickers on their car. I missed his help at work, but I don't blame him one bit when he left to take a job in Atlanta. I told him on his last day that I hoped he was able to find a more accepting place than this was.

I one time had to fire someone who went on a anti-gay, anti-muslim, rant on the work floor, making Nazi salutes to a QA tech, who was gay. The trifecta of stupid. This person had a half sleeve arm tattoo about the cross.

Are there anti-gay christens? You better believe it. I can't tell you the number of people in the area who believe they can pollute and make whatever mess of the planet they want because Christ will clean it all up in the 2nd Coming which must be any day now. While I agree it is poor journalism to use that as an argument and not site sources, I see that happening FAR too often.

Yes, this is a generalization, but the people who put themselves out there before the world as examples of Christianity tend to be the worst possible examples of it. So when someone looks at Christianity, they see people like Kanye West, Fred Phelps, or congressmen who try to force their religion on others. These are the ones who are visible and really gave a false representation for the rest of Christians. But because they are the ones people see, that is going to put a bad taste into someone's mouth.
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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Hagoth » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:54 am

When I went to see The Last Temptation of Christ I had to pass through a police barricade because of the angry protest that was being staged by local Christians. They were actually beating and torturing an effigy of Martin Scorsese. I thought, boy, whatever is going on inside this theater isn't going to do nearly as much damage to the image of Christians as you clowns.
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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Jeffret » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:15 pm

Pavlovitz was certainly right when he wrote this -- it's only become more true since then. All the surveys and statistics clearly show that organized religion in the U.S.A., which essentially means Christianity, is collapsing. As Pavlovitz wrote, much of this can be placed at the feet of proclaimed Christians, particularly those that proclaim it the loudest and who put themselves forward as leaders. Surveys show that's a major factor in people leaving the churches and Christianity.

It's true that he paints with a broad brush and not all Christians are guilty of what he says. Indeed, in his article he describes the type of Christians that are causing the most damage. I'm sure he hopes the he, himself as a Christian minister, is not among those driving people away.

As the old adage says, "If you were accused of being a follower of Christ (a Christian) would there be enough evidence to convict you?" More and more these days when I see the self-proclaimed leaders who talk the loudest I find absolutely no evidence to convict them as a follower of Christ. Nothing that they do or say indicates any concern for the Christ of the New Testament, whether he actually walked the earth long ago or not. It's gotten to the point where if someone says they are a Christian I automatically assume they will demonstrate lying, hypocrisy, and a complete disdain for others.
Newme wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:46 pm
Those are quite some accusations with not one example as proof, but acts as if it is the main reason less people attend church. What about simply not believing it, or people getting their religious community online more - as we are now?
The surveys and anecdotes show that is a major reason people, particularly the younger generation are leaving. One interesting aspect that is showing up in studies is that formerly people would leave their church as young adults but then return once they started settling down and raising families. Kind of like a rumspringa. People thought churches were valuable in raising good kids. In recent years, though, that has changed dramatically. People are leaving and not returning. The idea that churches are actually negative for raising children is significantly increasing. I can dig up and cite some of these surveys if that would be helpful. Anecdotally, I've heard of many, many similar examples. My own story follows these lines significantly. I could remain a member of the Mormon Church for many years, as long as could ignore the leaders and their attacks on others. Ultimately I concluded that if church leaders demanded there wasn't sufficient room for some people, there wasn't enough room for me, either.

Pavlovitz correctly notes that the article title is not entirely correct. The Christians aren't entirely creating atheists, but they are definitely creating former Christians. And former Mormons. All the surveys show a big rise in "None of the above" or the unchurched. And substantial declines in people's commitment to religion, reliance on it, or their confidence in the existence of a personal god. Or personal Jesus.

Pavlovitz really nailed it when he wrote, "No, the reason the Church soon will be teetering on the verge of extinction and irrelevance, will be because those entrusted to perpetuate the love of Jesus in the world, lost the plot so horribly, and gave the world no other option but to look elsewhere for goodness and purpose and truth."
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Newme » Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:03 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:30 pm
The article is pretty much just a stated opinion as Newme said. And it's painted with a pretty broad brush. That doesn't make it entirely wrong.....or right either. For being so down on Christians who are judgemental the author is being pretty condemning himself.

On the other hand it would be nice to be able to have an honest, thoughtful, truthful discussion regarding the issues that are raised.

Unfortunately, in the hyper-exercized political and cultural climate in which we currently find ourselves, I think a discussion of that nature is entirely impossible. Very few people, especially those who seem to love the cameras or internet attention, want to really listen to the other side of any argument right now. "Winning" is what is important regardless of the cost.
I agree and love, on the rare occasion, when I can discuss diverse views with reason - no ad hominem attacks or other Bs logical fallacies. If I could change curriculum, I would make understanding of cognitive distortions and logical fallacies a big part.

It’s not all-or-nothing (polarized/either-or-thinking). Christianity has been the excuse to kill many, though so has Islam & especially GREED (which comes in a variety of faiths or lack of). Human sacrifice scapegoating isn’t moral - most children can understand that. Yet, take the symbolism and maybe there’s truth in sacrificing momentary pleasure for longer term joy and benefit... and for people feeling crushed by emotions, belief someone will take that burden from them, is an effective placebo for many. Christianity inspires people to love others - that's the basis of Christ’s greatest commandments. Sure, people get that wrong in implementation, but the principle is pretty good.

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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Newme » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:01 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:15 pm
...As the old adage says, "If you were accused of being a follower of Christ (a Christian) would there be enough evidence to convict you?" More and more these days when I see the self-proclaimed leaders who talk the loudest I find absolutely no evidence to convict them as a follower of Christ. Nothing that they do or say indicates any concern for the Christ of the New Testament, whether he actually walked the earth long ago or not.

...The idea that churches are actually negative for raising children is significantly increasing. I can dig up and cite some of these surveys if that would be helpful. Anecdotally, I've heard of many, many similar examples. My own story follows these lines significantly. I could remain a member of the Mormon Church for many years, as long as could ignore the leaders and their attacks on others. Ultimately I concluded that if church leaders demanded there wasn't sufficient room for some people, there wasn't enough room for me, either...

Pavlovitz really nailed it when he wrote, "No, the reason the Church soon will be teetering on the verge of extinction and irrelevance, will be because those entrusted to perpetuate the love of Jesus in the world, lost the plot so horribly, and gave the world no other option but to look elsewhere for goodness and purpose and truth."
A lot of good points, Jeffret.
Earliest Christians are thought to be Gnostic who saw Christ as a spirit. Then Docetists believed Christ to be a spirit who came as an illusion of being human. The way Christ was viewed was the subject of debate for hundreds of years. I see Christ as a culmination of the highest good in humanity - and how to love well. We all struggle at times, to love well.

You don’t have to prove to me that being raised in this Mormon cult was harmful. I have experience too. ;) I understand what it feels like to be put down or looked down on simply because I don’t adhere to all their cultish ways. I would say that the church hates people who question the church leaders way more than any other group. And sadly, many blindly follow, even those who I thought loved me. But I figured out - it’s not personal. People who treat others badly usually do so because it’s an outpouring of their own thoughts and habits. Also I’ve realized painfully, that sometimes I’ve been hell-bent on getting offended, when they didn’t mean it.

Good quote by Pavlovitz. I believe most Christianity is corrupt - in many ways “anti-Christ.” It’s as if remnants of the crusades and inquisition spoil it by trying to FORCE people - to shame them or threaten them with hell and damnation for not accepting their warped version of Christianity. We’re not the only ones who’ve seen this...


“God does not need your good works, but your neighbor does.” -Martin Luther
“On this view, a wrong is imputed to God, but it is certainly no worse than what has already been imputed to him if one assumes that it was necessary to torture the son to death on the Cross merely in order to appease the father’s wrath. What kind of father is it who would rather his son were slaughtered than forgive his ill-advised creatures who have been corrupted by his precious Satan? What is supposed to be demonstrated by this gruesome & archaic sacrifice of the son? God’s love, perhaps? Or his implacability?” - Carl Jung

Thomas Jefferson questioned parts of Christianity...
“The whole history of these books (i.e. the Gospels) is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.”

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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Jeffret » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:57 am

Newme wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:01 pm
The way Christ was viewed was the subject of debate for hundreds of years. I see Christ as a culmination of the highest good in humanity - and how to love well. We all struggle at times, to love well.
Completely agree. The debate and the struggle rage on.

I've recommended Bruce Bawer's Stealing Jesus: How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity many times and it's very appropriate here. He describes how right-wing religion has claimed sole authority to describe who Jesus is: legalistic, authoritarian, and created in their image. This is at odds with the text and the long history. In more recent years it's gotten even worse as the loud voices of right-wing Christians have pretty much abandoned all pretense of following Jesus, using his name as a talisman to pursue their own desires.

Here's a related article about the Church of Canada: Church of Canada may disappear by 2040, says new report. This talks about a different type of leader and church and doesn't discuss the causes, as Pavlovitz picks out one to discuss. It discusses some of the problems faced by churches. Originally the claim was that liberal churches were losing members but hard-line conservative ones weren't. It just took the latter longer to feel the pinch. The Southern Baptists recognized the problems years ago and it's been propagating through evangelical churches particularly in recent years. The Mormon Church is kind of unique in that it's a fairly large, organized religion that has not yet reported membership declines. It keeps inching closer towards that point each year, though.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Palerider » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:29 am

Jeffret wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:57 am
The Mormon Church is kind of unique in that it's a fairly large, organized religion that has not yet reported membership declines. It keeps inching closer towards that point each year, though.
This is nothing for the LDS church to celebrate and I think in the upper offices of the COB they are quietly panicking.

They used to have bragging rights about being the fastest growing religion on the planet. Now all they can celebrate is that they're not shrinking.....yet....

Stagnation is nothing to be proud of. Yet they try to see it as a great thing by comparison to other churches. Their time is fast approaching when they won't even have stagnation to vaunt.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Jeffret » Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:04 pm

Palerider wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:29 am
This is nothing for the LDS church to celebrate and I think in the upper offices of the COB they are quietly panicking.

They used to have bragging rights about being the fastest growing religion on the planet. Now all they can celebrate is that they're not shrinking.....yet....

Stagnation is nothing to be proud of. Yet they try to see it as a great thing by comparison to other churches. Their time is fast approaching when they won't even have stagnation to vaunt.
I'm sure they're panicking and not proud of this by any means. I've never seen them try to justify anything because their declines aren't as bad as everyone else's. They don't want to call attention to it in public anymore than they have to.

This Wikipedia article has good data on worldwide church statistics and growth. Growth has been on a steady decline and currently sits at 1.21%.

Within the U.S.A, this page from Cumorah shows similar statistics for the U.S.A. In the all-important home country, the growth rate has slowed to 0.6%. The number of new units has really stagnated.

Of course, we don't know how much to trust the Church's numbers. More reliable numbers are people who self-report as being members. At 2% of the national population there aren't enough members for changes to show up in national surveys until the decline is significant. I recall a more recent survey that showed Mormon membership at 1.9% of the population but with the survey's margin of error that is indistinguishable for other surveys and the Church's reported 2.04%.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Newme » Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:40 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:57 am
Newme wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:01 pm
The way Christ was viewed was the subject of debate for hundreds of years. I see Christ as a culmination of the highest good in humanity - and how to love well. We all struggle at times, to love well.
Completely agree. The debate and the struggle rage on.

I've recommended Bruce Bawer's Stealing Jesus: How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity many times and it's very appropriate here. He describes how right-wing religion has claimed sole authority to describe who Jesus is: legalistic, authoritarian, and created in their image. This is at odds with the text and the long history. In more recent years it's gotten even worse as the loud voices of right-wing Christians have pretty much abandoned all pretense of following Jesus, using his name as a talisman to pursue their own desires.

Here's a related article about the Church of Canada: Church of Canada may disappear by 2040, says new report. This talks about a different type of leader and church and doesn't discuss the causes, as Pavlovitz picks out one to discuss. It discusses some of the problems faced by churches. Originally the claim was that liberal churches were losing members but hard-line conservative ones weren't. It just took the latter longer to feel the pinch. The Southern Baptists recognized the problems years ago and it's been propagating through evangelical churches particularly in recent years. The Mormon Church is kind of unique in that it's a fairly large, organized religion that has not yet reported membership declines. It keeps inching closer towards that point each year, though.
Thanks - both are interesting.
You know how our church has switched to “home centered, church supported”? The lady in the Canadian church article said similarly. I wonder if there’s a larger background reason.

“Right wing” - You made me laugh - which is no easy feat today. :) My kids tease me about “leftist ideologies” - I tend to blame everything on. Lol And you blame it all on right-wingers. Lol. Somebody has to be blamed, right?! ;)

I do want to learn more - and will look more into that book. Thank you. Although I tend to vote conservatively, there are some issues like conserving the environment (ought to be a conservative issue), unjust wars & unfair tax breaks that I diverge. And definitely, most would consider me liberal in religious understanding - I don’t like dysfunctional dogma. Some books and videos I’ve learned most from, I partly disagree with. “Putting on the Mind of Christ” taught me so much, yet I disagree with some of his political & psychological interpretations. Same with this guy...
Bill Donahue explains no 2nd coming because it’s within u:
https://youtu.be/fRCWPg6N0HM

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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Jeffret » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:58 pm

Newme wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:40 pm
You know how our church has switched to “home centered, church supported”? The lady in the Canadian church article said similarly. I wonder if there’s a larger background reason.
There have been observations that many families these days, particularly young families, have switched to a homechurched model. They no longer feel comfortable within a typical hierarchical religious institution, but they still want to instill values in their children. Some may continue to follow some form of a Christian approach, while others pursue other religions or general spirituality. Frequently they don't adhere to any specific institution so they are grouped into the rapidly increasing "None of the above" category. As you said earlier, "people getting their religious community online more - as we are now".

I think to some degree these churches (Mormons, Church of Canada) are trying to find ways to stay relevant in a changing, modern society. Rather than letting all these people just leave they want to say, "You still need us." Unfortunately I don't think people really do. Along the lines of what Pavlovitz writes, people are discovering that the churches aren't really providing moral teachings consistent with what they want to hear and teach their kids.
“Right wing” - You made me laugh - which is no easy feat today. :) My kids tease me about “leftist ideologies” - I tend to blame everything on. Lol And you blame it all on right-wingers. Lol. Somebody has to be blamed, right?! ;)
Bawer calls them "fundamentalists" in his book. Pavlovitz calls them the "Conservative American Church" in this article. In this thread, the people that I'm primarily talking about are the vocal Evangelical leaders and their followers. Their religion has been co-opted and perverted by right-wing American politics. The Church of Canada doesn't fall into that category. I would only consider the Mormon Church as partially in that category. (I'm not putting your personal theology, Newme, into any of these categories. Though, I note that your comment, "I see Christ as a culmination of the highest good in humanity - and how to love well" aligns more with the Jesus that Bawer follows than the fundamentalist one. Along with your quotes from Luther and Jefferson.)

I don't consider myself a Christian so I don't really agree with Bawer or Pavlovitz. I can see some value in the Christ followed by Bawer and Pavlovitz and not the fundamentalist evangelicals, though. Some things I can learn from.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Palerider » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:36 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:04 pm
I'm sure they're panicking and not proud of this by any means. I've never seen them try to justify anything because their declines aren't as bad as everyone else's. They don't want to call attention to it in public anymore than they have to.
They aren't exactly celebrating here but by implication they are saying, compared to others we're "holding steady" which as we both agree is just a euphemism for stagnation, at least here in the U.S.

http://www.ldsliving.com/Latter-day-Sai ... US/s/91791
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Jeffret » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:23 pm

Palerider wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:36 pm
They aren't exactly celebrating here but by implication they are saying, compared to others we're "holding steady" which as we both agree is just a euphemism for stagnation, at least here in the U.S.

http://www.ldsliving.com/Latter-day-Sai ... US/s/91791
Interesting. That's the first time I've seen anything like that from the Mormon Church. (Admittedly I miss a lot of what they do and say these days.) It's not from an official church source, but still it's interesting. A departure from the "stone cut without hands". It's interesting that this article is barely a month old and the other one it references was only earlier this year. Are they starting to normalize the idea that the Church isn't growing and holding steady is good enough?

Both LDS Living articles reference this article earlier this year by Daniel Cox: Most churches are losing members fast — but not the Mormons. Here’s why. It's a very positive article about Mormons, their focus on family, and some of their practices, though he does also discuss young members' problems with an intolerant church. I can't find any connection between Cox and the Church, other than he's presented a couple of times at religious freedom conferences at BYU.

He's got a couple of other recent articles relevant to this conversation: The Christian Right Is Helping Drive Liberals Away From Religion and Could Trump Drive Young White Evangelicals Away From The GOP?
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Palerider » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:02 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:23 pm
Are they starting to normalize the idea that the Church isn't growing and holding steady is good enough?
That's a distinct possibility.

I was thinking more along the lines that the information was making news and they just wanted to spin it as much in their favor as possible. But yes, normalizing stagnation might help maintain the "all's well in Zion" facade.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:42 pm

We are already seeing the change in growth expectations in some of the talks. They used to talk about how the church would grow to fill the whole earth, not the rethoretic is that the church will be small and minor.

RFM has had a couple episodes on this.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Re: Turning Christains into Atheists

Post by oliblish » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:05 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:42 pm
We are already seeing the change in growth expectations in some of the talks. They used to talk about how the church would grow to fill the whole earth, not the rethoretic is that the church will be small and minor.

RFM has had a couple episodes on this.
Radio Free Mormon 41 - Gaslighting by the Numbers

Instead of quoting Daniel and the rock that will fill the whole earth, this scripture is being quoted:
1 Nephi 14:12 wrote: And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon ball the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
See? We have always thought the church would be small!
Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides; holding the key of power also, pertaining to other planets; as revealed from God to Abraham

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