Temple recommend/ who should judge others

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Mackman
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Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by Mackman » Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:19 pm

Im having a real problem with church interviews for the temple and baptism. I dont feel like one man should judge anothers worthiness !!! I was looking for a scripture in the bible pertaining to this not finding any . I know about the one not judging others or you will be judged but what about no man should judge another or something like that ? Anyway it is a real issue for me right now. I just dont see how a bishop or sp can judge someone elses worthiness isnt that job reserved for God.

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Palerider
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by Palerider » Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:53 pm

Ahhh....you've hit upon one of my very favorite pet peeves. I've been going on about this for the past few years.

For all church leadership's crap about the "powers of discernment" it has become blatantly obvious that they and local leaders have zip in that department.

No one on Earth can truly know what's in another person's heart or the strength of their character. That's why we are told not to put our trust in the arm of flesh. And you're absolutely right about having another human judging your worthiness. God is the only being who has the ability to see into your heart and mind to evaluate your worth to Him. And that worth is greater than you can imagine. The temple experience pales by comparison. It only evaluates your worth to the church.

Temple recommend interviews are an earthly test to see if you qualify for an earthly club membership.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Newme
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by Newme » Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:56 pm

Mackman wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:19 pm
Im having a real problem with church interviews for the temple and baptism. I dont feel like one man should judge anothers worthiness !!! I was looking for a scripture in the bible pertaining to this not finding any . I know about the one not judging others or you will be judged but what about no man should judge another or something like that ? Anyway it is a real issue for me right now. I just dont see how a bishop or sp can judge someone elses worthiness isnt that job reserved for God.
"Judge not, and you will not be judged." Luke 6:37
I think that applies to bishops and take presidents. But I get the impression many members feel better imagining bishops/stake pres/GA as their authority/parent substitutes. They want someone to say, “All you need to do is -xyz-, and you’ll be set as worthy.” They don’t want to have to wrestle with God/their own conscious for the rest of their lives... and yet, there are no short cuts in character and spiritual development.

“there is no man that sinneth not” - 1Kings 8:46

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Newme
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by Newme » Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:03 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:53 pm
No one on Earth can truly know what's in another person's heart or the strength of their character. That's why we are told not to put our trust in the arm of flesh. And you're absolutely right about having another human judging your worthiness. God is the only being who has the ability to see into your heart and mind to evaluate your worth to Him. And that worth is greater than you can imagine. The temple experience pales by comparison. It only evaluates your worth to the church.

Temple recommend interviews are an earthly test to see if you qualify for an earthly club membership.
Well put! God looks on our hearts and “is no respector of persons.” God doesn’t favor Mormons over Hindus or Taoists etc. I especially like how you mentioned the temple interview only evaluates worth according to the church - which is not the same as God.

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Hagoth
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by Hagoth » Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:23 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:53 pm
Ahhh....you've hit upon one of my very favorite pet peeves. I've been going on about this for the past few years...

Temple recommend interviews are an earthly test to see if you qualify for an earthly club membership.
High on my list too. Especially the idea that I have to satisfy from two guys in my neighborhood that I'm wearing my underwear in a way that they find satisfactory.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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deacon blues
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by deacon blues » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:57 pm

I'm always reminded of the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican. (Luke 18) The pharisee thanks God that he's not a sinner. :roll: The publican says, "God have mercy on me a sinner." Jesus said it was the publican who was "justified." :o One of several anti-intuitive teachings of Jesus Christ.
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moksha
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by moksha » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:40 pm

Wish LDS Elders would only judge once they have taken up residence in Israel and have been issued a judging permit by the Knesset.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Hagoth
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by Hagoth » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:56 am

deacon blues wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:57 pm
I'm always reminded of the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican. (Luke 18) The pharisee thanks God that he's not a sinner. :roll: The publican says, "God have mercy on me a sinner." Jesus said it was the publican who was "justified." :o One of several anti-intuitive teachings of Jesus Christ.
Maybe humility and honesty are more godly traits than "purity?" Of course, what the pharisee is calling sin may not have been actual sin at all in God's eyes, you know, like the way a good Mormon thanks God he's not a tea drinking kind of sinner. Since he's referring to a publican, maybe the collecting of taxes as the sin in question, which means his concept of sin might be politically motivated, like the way some people might consider "tree huggers," feminists, and never-Trumpers as in opposition to God's plan.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by Palerider » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:50 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:56 am
deacon blues wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:57 pm
I'm always reminded of the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican. (Luke 18) The pharisee thanks God that he's not a sinner. :roll: The publican says, "God have mercy on me a sinner." Jesus said it was the publican who was "justified." :o One of several anti-intuitive teachings of Jesus Christ.
Maybe humility and honesty are more godly traits than "purity?" Of course, what the pharisee is calling sin may not have been actual sin at all in God's eyes, you know, like the way a good Mormon thanks God he's not a tea drinking kind of sinner. Since he's referring to a publican, maybe the collecting of taxes as the sin in question, which means his concept of sin might be politically motivated, like the way some people might consider "tree huggers," feminists, and never-Trumpers as in opposition to God's plan.
Seems to me the Pharisee's sin was one of comparison. When we set ourselves up as the standard of righteousness it follows logically that we can then measure another's righteousness. Not only have we then committed the sin of judging others worthiness but we have taken over God's place and judged ourselves as worthy. The very definition of "self-righteous".

What Mormon Leadership fail to do is accrue an accurate appreciation of God's perfection and character and then continually compare themselves to Him. When Old Testament prophets declare the righteous works of Israel to filthy rags before God's righteousness, it gives one a true sense that there is no work that a human can do that will give them cause to get "uppity".

If Mormons hadn't been raised in a culture promoting the "You can reach Godly perfection in this life" heresy, they wouldn't dare judge another's righteousness beyond what is required by civil law. Hopefully they would be too busy working on their own accurately seen character flaws.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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blazerb
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by blazerb » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:50 am

Palerider wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:50 am
What Mormon Leadership fail to do is accrue an accurate appreciation of God's perfection and character and then continually compare themselves to Him. When Old Testament prophets declare the righteous works of Israel to filthy rags before God's righteousness, it gives one a true sense that there is no work that a human can do that will give them cause to get "uppity".

If Mormons hadn't been raised in a culture promoting the "You can reach Godly perfection in this life" heresy, they wouldn't dare judge another's righteousness beyond what is required by civil law. Hopefully they would be too busy working on their own accurately seen character flaws.
They will claim that they are not uppity, but they are. I'm trying to remember which of the September 6 spoke about the "nice" way the high council treated them after they were exed. I think they described it as cruel. It's a similar thing.

The honest leaders know they can't tell if a person is righteous or not, but they continue the worthiness interview thing because it's what they are supposed to do. The deluded leaders are sure they can tell. The dishonest leaders also know they can't tell, but don't care about the harm they cause. It's barbaric.

I have shared this before, but it fits here. When I was a teenager, I rode the bus to school usually sitting next to to a boy I'll call Robert. Robert was about to graduate. I guess he went to church, but he was pretty honest with me about his feelings regarding church. He also told me all about his weekend exploits. He probably exaggerated some of the sexual experiences, but it was clear that, according to church practices, he was not "worthy." Well, the bishop wanted to ordain him an elder. Robert shared with me what he thought of that as well. Apparently, the bishop, the SP, the high council who approved his ordination, and everyone else around was unable to discern what this kid was like. I was unable to attend the stake priesthood meeting when he was sustained to receive the Melchizedek Priesthood. I was glad. As a TBM, I might have raised my hand in opposition. For various reasons I won't go into, that might have been a disaster.

Worthiness interviews are an abomination. I mean that literally. They only ever punish the honest or falsely accused. The truly guilty go on and have a great time.

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Hagoth
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by Hagoth » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:53 am

Excellent observations, Palerider.
Palerider wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:50 am
If Mormons hadn't been raised in a culture promoting the "You can reach Godly perfection in this life" heresy, they wouldn't dare judge another's righteousness beyond what is required by civil law. Hopefully they would be too busy working on their own accurately seen character flaws.
Yes, this leads to Whited Sepulcher syndrome. Everyone at church feels compelled to behave as if they are just-this-close-to-perfection. Because we are taught that we should be perfect on the inside there is pressure to appear perfect on the outside. Our ideas about what constitutes sin and personal corruption become distorted.

Case in point:
The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power; “Mar 3, 1953 – First Presidency secretary answers Mormon’s inquiry about receiving blood. J Reuben Clark transfusions from African Americans: “The LDS Hospital here in Salt Lake City has a blood bank which does not contain any colored blood.” This represents five year effort to keep LDS Hospital’s blood bank separate from American Red Cross system in order “to protect the purity of the blood streams of the people of this Church” (Counselor J. Reuben Clark’s phrase.)” – D. Michael Quinn
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by Palerider » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:32 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:53 am

Case in point:
The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power; “Mar 3, 1953 – First Presidency secretary answers Mormon’s inquiry about receiving blood. J Reuben Clark transfusions from African Americans: “The LDS Hospital here in Salt Lake City has a blood bank which does not contain any colored blood.” This represents five year effort to keep LDS Hospital’s blood bank separate from American Red Cross system in order “to protect the purity of the blood streams of the people of this Church” (Counselor J. Reuben Clark’s phrase.)” – D. Michael Quinn
Yeowzah.....

Never seen that one before. Kind of gives you the creeps doesn't it?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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moksha
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by moksha » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:22 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:53 am
The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power; “Mar 3, 1953 – First Presidency secretary answers Mormon’s inquiry about receiving blood. J Reuben Clark transfusions from African Americans: “The LDS Hospital here in Salt Lake City has a blood bank which does not contain any colored blood.” This represents five year effort to keep LDS Hospital’s blood bank separate from American Red Cross system in order “to protect the purity of the blood streams of the people of this Church” (Counselor J. Reuben Clark’s phrase.)” – D. Michael Quinn
Unfortunately, not all official pronouncements by the Church have since been as charming as when Joseph Smith described what the inhabitants of the moon looked like and their manner of dress. Sometimes they said outlandish stuff like J. Reuben Clark in the quote up above. Clark also liked to hand out anti-semitic literature to those who came to his office. That was back in an era when such racial hatreds were more acceptable. Now the Church leaders reserve their vehemence for the LGBTQ community. The BYU Law School is named after Clark.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by Hagoth » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:16 am

moksha wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:22 am
Unfortunately, not all official pronouncements by the Church have since been as charming as when Joseph Smith described what the inhabitants of the moon looked like and their manner of dress. Sometimes they said outlandish stuff like J. Reuben Clark in the quote up above. Clark also liked to hand out anti-semitic literature to those who came to his office. That was back in an era when such racial hatreds were more acceptable. Now the Church leaders reserve their vehemence for the LGBTQ community. The BYU Law School is named after Clark.
When we say they're "just speaking as men" or that they were "men of their time" I guess we mean they're only being as malicious as their current cultural climate would permit. It makes me wonder how far they might have taken it in the name of God if there had been no mitigating cultural limits.

Projecting this kind of behavior onto the latest crop of leaders, who are also men of their times pressing up against barriers of cultural acceptability, doesn't give me much confidence in their ability to judge people righteously.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by Palerider » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:22 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:16 am
When we say they're "just speaking as men" or that they were "men of their time" I guess we mean they're only being as malicious as their current cultural climate would permit.
And here I thought that having access to God's mind through revelation was what gave men the power to see OUTSIDE of their cultural boundaries and prejudices. To be able to see God's children as He sees them.

Isn't that what Christ did in associating with the lower classes and the publicans? To not be afraid of or disdain the lepers? It was certainly a cultural taboo.

Isn't the great gift of revelation to see the vision as Peter did of the sheet that came down from Heaven filled with all manner of heretofore "unclean" animals and receive the declaration not to call "unclean" that which God hath made clean? Did God value the gentiles?

Doesn't revelation give us a "God's eye view" of his children outside of the worldly paradigms that have been built by men?

I know some will say, "But look, Paul made the case for when he spoke as a man and when he spoke from revelation."

To that I can say, maybe Paul made a mistake. Maybe he should have waited before saying that "women should keep silence in the church".

Rather than COPY Paul's mistake and use it to scripturally justify MORE mistakes, maybe we could actually learn from his mistake. How long does it take to receive revelation?

Look at King David for a moment. Rather than use him to justify polygamy why don't we see the end result that having everything you want brought him to? Look what being a "man of his time" brought him.

If revelation is truth and truth sets us free, doesn't it also free us from the cultural shackles that bind us as well as freeing us from sin?

Or am I expecting too much? :|
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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alas
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by alas » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:03 pm

Palerider wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:22 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:16 am
When we say they're "just speaking as men" or that they were "men of their time" I guess we mean they're only being as malicious as their current cultural climate would permit.
And here I thought that having access to God's mind through revelation was what gave men the power to see OUTSIDE of their cultural boundaries and prejudices. To be able to see God's children as He sees them.

Isn't that what Christ did in associating with the lower classes and the publicans? To not be afraid of or disdain the lepers? It was certainly a cultural taboo.

Isn't the great gift of revelation to see the vision as Peter did of the sheet that came down from Heaven filled with all manner of heretofore "unclean" animals and receive the declaration not to call "unclean" that which God hath made clean? Did God value the gentiles?

Doesn't revelation give us a "God's eye view" of his children outside of the worldly paradigms that have been built by men?

I know some will say, "But look, Paul made the case for when he spoke as a man and when he spoke from revelation."

To that I can say, maybe Paul made a mistake. Maybe he should have waited before saying that "women should keep silence in the church".

Rather than COPY Paul's mistake and use it to scripturally justify MORE mistakes, maybe we could actually learn from his mistake. How long does it take to receive revelation?

Look at King David for a moment. Rather than use him to justify polygamy why don't we see the end result that having everything you want brought him to? Look what being a "man of his time" brought him.

If revelation is truth and truth sets us free, doesn't it also free us from the cultural shackles that bind us as well as freeing us from sin?

Or am I expecting too much? :|
I think that “being a product of their time” meant that they were not seeing black people as “children of God”, but seeing them as “those who flunked their first estate”. Therefore, God wanted them punished. If you really look into the religious teachings of the times, they asked religious questions like, “Do the negro people have souls?” And there really was debate as to whether or not they had souls. No soul = not a child of God. So, no, many people back then did not see blacks as children of God. Mormons were at least “progressive” enough that they saw blacks as “children of God who were not valiant during the first estate.”

I remember my own first struggles with this whole topic, and my thinking was definitely not normal for back in the 60s. The DOCTRINE was that they were lukewarm, or fence sitters, or less valiant, during the first estate. They had not progressed far enough to receive the all the blessings of this second estate. Getting blessings they were unprepared for would make them responsible for that knowledge and they would fail, just like a five year old child plopped into calculus. They did not have the knowledge and spiritual experience to handle priesthood and temple. Much kinder than them not being “in the image of a white God and therefore not being children of God or having souls.” I compared this to what I saw as bigotry from other religions saying blacks had no soul, they were not “made in the I age of God because they were black and everybody “knew” God was white” ..bla bla bla bla. And I said to myself, ummmm, sounds Wrong somehow. God would not send his kindergarten children into a world where they see the older kids learning calculus, and wonder what is wrong with them. I had an experience that made the explanation fail to make sense because I was put in a class when I was in second grade where 1/2 the class was 2nd grade and the other half was 3rd grade and I watched and envied what the 3rd graders were learning. (But then I was always bored to tears in school because I already knew too much for my grade level.) So, I knew that blacks would watch and envy those who were “ahead” of them and wonder what was wrong with them. Um, no, God is smarter than that and if *I* know it would hurt people, surely God knows it would hurt people. So, I didn’t buy it and I was in 2nd grade and the year was 1959.

But what I did see, or maybe my mom explained to me, was that the Mormon attitude was better than that of some other religions.

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Palerider
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by Palerider » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:35 pm

alas wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:03 pm

I think that “being a product of their time” meant that they were not seeing black people as “children of God”, but seeing them as “those who flunked their first estate”. Therefore, God wanted them punished. If you really look into the religious teachings of the times, they asked religious questions like, “Do the negro people have souls?”
And this I think makes the point even better. If the LDS church had truly been receiving revelation, they would have been informed that God not only did see blacks as his children but that they did qualify for the priesthood and temple ordinances. True revelation would have opened their eyes to the fallacy in their present culture.

This has to be obvious to thinking members now because no current LDS leader would dare say that blacks were rightly denied the priesthood. They've already admitted in essence it was wrong and they can't explain it other than to non-specifically blame racism and "early church leaders".

Using the "We were speaking as men" excuse just allows them to have their cake and eat it too.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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wtfluff
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by wtfluff » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:42 pm

Palerider wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:22 pm
Or am I expecting too much? :|
Let's just make this easy: YES, you are expecting too much. Especially for a bunch of old guys with their heads stuck in the 1950's who have spent a lifetime in a tribe that tells them they can do no wrong, and that "judgment" is their job.

You did ask... :roll:
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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Palerider
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Re: Temple recommend/ who should judge others

Post by Palerider » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:50 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:42 pm
Palerider wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:22 pm
Or am I expecting too much? :|
Let's just make this easy: YES, you are expecting too much. Especially for a bunch of old guys with their heads stuck in the 1950's who have spent a lifetime in a tribe that tells them they can do no wrong, and that "judgment" is their job.

You did ask... :roll:
I was being facetious.... 8-)
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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