Another failed miracle

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Yobispo
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Another failed miracle

Post by Yobispo » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:19 pm

For those of you on Reddit, please forgive the double post here but I know our beloved Elder R. Free Mormon visits here and I wanted him to see this.

The church put out this story (maybe today?). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/blo ... stmas-tree

Kid gets a blessing, makes it to the hospital only to die later. But she becomes an organ donor so.... MIRACLE!

This poor family had their hearts broken with an accidental loss of a child. Tragic. But jeepers folks, how many times can they promote this crap as miraculous?

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Hagoth
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Re: Another failed miracle

Post by Hagoth » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:54 pm

That is a very sad story, and finding a miracle amidst the tragedy could help it all make sense, as if it is part of a bigger plan.

On the other hand, that would mean that if the same thing happened to a non-LDS child who didn't receive a priesthood blessing you would have to acknowledge it as equivalently miraculous.

There is a second potential tragedy in this story; the neighbor who gave the blessing who will wonder every time he sees his neighbors if their daughter died because he wasn't quite righteous or faithful enough.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Advocate
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Re: Another failed miracle

Post by Advocate » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:08 pm

That story is absolutely heart-wrenching. Who wouldn't feel compassion and empathy reading about a mother losing her 3 year old daughter. And that is why the church went with this story: the compassion and empathy will be mistaken for the spirit. So the church must be true!

I hate to call this out, but I wonder if the story has been embellished. I have no medical training at all, and even I know that it is common in the case of drownings for the person (usually a child in a pool) to go brain dead from lack of oxygen, but the "life" will return to their body as their heart and lungs start working again and the child looks like a healthy child who is sleeping. It seems to me that a child that was asphyxiated form a cord for window blinds would exhibit the same symptoms as a drowning. And I find it absolutely unbelievable that not a single doctor at the hospital would have warned the family what to expect. However, in the story we are told that it was a miracle for them to see "life" returning to their child's body. It doesn't seem like a miracle to me; more likely a made up hope to show a miracle (conveniently leaving out the warnings any doctor would give) or a family that doesn't want to come to grips with reality (entirely plausible and understandable, but not a miracle).

The rest of the story speaks of good people doing good things, and calling that a miracle. I live in an area where members of the church are few and far between. Yet I see many people who have no association with the church caring for others and succoring those who stand in need. Not to say that members of the church aren't great people! Yes, most are good, caring people who care for others. But that isn't a miracle. That is good people doing what good people do, something found worldwide everyday. Also not a miracle.

I think it comes down to the church needs to redefine miracles to keep believers happy. I suspect most people would define miracles like this:
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.
However, we never see those in the church. Instead, the church needs to redefine miracles to be:
a natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law
In other words, if the church defines miracles how they want then the miracle is always in the eye of the beholder.

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Evil_Bert
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Re: Another failed miracle

Post by Evil_Bert » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:17 pm

I remember when this happened. Her father was a coach/former player at BYU. The senseless tragedy did provide a miracle to the families in need of transplants. That a blessing didn't fix it doesn't mean that a miracle didn't happen, it was provided by this family and the skill of doctors and nurses on transplant teams. It happened through science.
Illegitimi non carborundum.

consiglieri
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Re: Another failed miracle

Post by consiglieri » Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:49 am

40 years ago I was baptized into a church that would have saved this girl with a priesthood blessing. Now the blessing is superfluous. It can save nothing. The story will happen the same with or without the blessing. It is a sad day for the LDS church.

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Palerider
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Re: Another failed miracle

Post by Palerider » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:58 pm

Evil_Bert wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:17 pm
I remember when this happened. Her father was a coach/former player at BYU. The senseless tragedy did provide a miracle to the families in need of transplants. That a blessing didn't fix it doesn't mean that a miracle didn't happen, it was provided by this family and the skill of doctors and nurses on transplant teams. It happened through science.
I'm sure that the families who received this little girl's organs were extremely appreciative and considered it an answer to their prayers.

But on the other hand if they could have seen her alive and thriving and then been asked the question by Heavenly Father, "Shall I take this child's life to save yours?" I have the feeling that none of them would have said "Yes". How could they?

But as it is here on Earth, many things happen by chance. And when there are tragedies we try to make the best of them. The miracle is in the hearts of people who are willing to give a part of their child for others who are also unfortunate and also in the gratitude of those who receive such a blessing.

There is a reason why God solves few of our problems here on earth in a miraculous way. We're not here to have all difficulties solved that way. Otherwise it would be a very common occurrence.

Although there will come a time when all will be healed and fully restored, our time here is meant to be one of learning and often painful experience, that will make life with God and His final triumph appreciated in a way that could not possibly have happened otherwise.

If we think of the Savior's inclination, it was not to go around making the well off and healthy people more perfect. It was to heal those who had long EXPERIENCE with great pain. And in His own time He will do the same for all of us. For now, we learn by experience. As Aunt Eller said, "Child, you got to look at both the good and the bad and say "Yes" to both of them."
In the meantime our opportunity and responsibility is to follow His example to give aid and comfort to all within our power to help.

That's my take.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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alas
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Re: Another failed miracle

Post by alas » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:54 am

Palerider wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:58 pm
Evil_Bert wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:17 pm
I remember when this happened. Her father was a coach/former player at BYU. The senseless tragedy did provide a miracle to the families in need of transplants. That a blessing didn't fix it doesn't mean that a miracle didn't happen, it was provided by this family and the skill of doctors and nurses on transplant teams. It happened through science.
I'm sure that the families who received this little girl's organs were extremely appreciative and considered it an answer to their prayers.

But on the other hand if they could have seen her alive and thriving and then been asked the question by Heavenly Father, "Shall I take this child's life to save yours?" I have the feeling that none of them would have said "Yes". How could they?

But as it is here on Earth, many things happen by chance. And when there are tragedies we try to make the best of them. The miracle is in the hearts of people who are willing to give a part of their child for others who are also unfortunate and also in the gratitude of those who receive such a blessing.

There is a reason why God solves few of our problems here on earth in a miraculous way. We're not here to have all difficulties solved that way. Otherwise it would be a very common occurrence.

Although there will come a time when all will be healed and fully restored, our time here is meant to be one of learning and often painful experience, that will make life with God and His final triumph appreciated in a way that could not possibly have happened otherwise.

If we think of the Savior's inclination, it was not to go around making the well off and healthy people more perfect. It was to heal those who had long EXPERIENCE with great pain. And in His own time He will do the same for all of us. For now, we learn by experience. As Aunt Eller said, "Child, you got to look at both the good and the bad and say "Yes" to both of them."
In the meantime our opportunity and responsibility is to follow His example to give aid and comfort to all within our power to help.

That's my take.
I agree with this take. If there is a God, which I am not positive about. If there isn’t a God, then life is just a game of “shit happens.”

I think other than offering comfort, God is pretty much hands off. According to Mormon doctrine, the other choice was Satan’s plan. And while I don’t agree with 99% of the things Joseph Smith promoted, this idea of earth being a tough learning experience where we are allowed to make choices and screw up our and other people’s lives was not original with Joseph Smith. Sometimes am not sure what I believe, but I know life is a tough learning experience and it would be a shame to just throw away all that learning by turning off the computer without backing anything up.

I do think that most of the miracles in the Bible are just myth, invented after the fact. So, maybe my crappy childhood never allowed me to believe in miracles in the first place, so I was never disillusioned by a lack of miracles.

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Palerider
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Re: Another failed miracle

Post by Palerider » Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:52 pm

alas wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:54 am

I think other than offering comfort, God is pretty much hands off. According to Mormon doctrine, the other choice was Satan’s plan. And while I don’t agree with 99% of the things Joseph Smith promoted, this idea of earth being a tough learning experience where we are allowed to make choices and screw up our and other people’s lives was not original with Joseph Smith. Sometimes am not sure what I believe, but I know life is a tough learning experience and it would be a shame to just throw away all that learning by turning off the computer without backing anything up.
It seems Mormons want to see the hand of God in all things. And I wouldn't necessarily disagree that it is there. I just don't agree that it's there the way they think it is.
They spend endless hours trying to force God into their paradigm rather than changing their world view to fit what God actually does. They have to rationalize the Mormon god to keep the Mormon characterization of God working for them. It's truly mind bending.

As you said, Alas, I think in most cases God is purposefully hands off. It isn't that He doesn't care, it's that He would thwart our purpose for being here if he removed every sliver and thorn.

As I recall Christ was much more concerned with how we treat one another and that we control our tendencies to do harm than He was about our physical condition.

To me the real miracle is that He can still persuade our hearts and minds in this day and age.

If a bodily issue is miraculously alleviated that's wonderful I'm not saying that never happens. But if it doesn't happen that certainly doesn't stop me from believing in God.

Now if some hairbrain out there wants to start claiming he has the power of God that was given to the ancient Apostles and has God's ear, well......he can either put up or shut up.

There are people who only want to "see" miracles so that they can consume it upon their lusts. But that also means that there are honest people out there who are sincerely ready and prepared to follow someone who actually wields that power in righteousness.

I already believe in God. I already believe in Christ. I already try to keep the commandments. I'm not looking for proof or a sign that God exists. But if a person wants to claim he's sent from God and that I should follow his leadership specifically, he'll have to do a LOT better than the Book of Mormon :roll: and some pilfered Masonic temple rites, that's for sure.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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