NOM

Bouncing off the cigar discussion...

My entire family is sick at the moment. Flu, colds, you name it; we have it - and it isn't pretty. DW has often made herbal tea for the kids when they are sick to help sooth throats... or something. I've never really been a big fan of herbal tea so I have never really tried it when sick, but they absolutely love it.

Either way, all of our recent tea brewing has me thinking about the WoW.

D&C 89:

9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.

So hot drinks are bad. Which we all know has been interpreted to be coffee and tea. At some point this also included things like hot soup, but that's just crazy, so we ignore those teachings. There is no caveat for herbal hot drinks, or hot chocolate. There is just a simple blanket statement, no hot drinks.

While hot drinks are bad, herbs are good. It seems, according to our current cultural interpretation, that "herbs" does not apply to good old MJ but does apply to herbs used to make tea, even though that completely contradicts the preceding verse's warning about hot drinks.

How did we ever decide which verses to uphold and which ones to ignore?

I have cleaned cuts with isopropyl alcohol, but that definitely is not a "strong drink." Would bathing in "strong drink" be effective or fun? Would it smell bad? I have no experience with alcohol, so I'm not sure what to even think about that one.

I play full-contact sports and regularly get bruises. And yet, I've never once tried to use tobacco to heal said bruises.

Why do we eat meat year round rather than just in winter or times of famine?

How beneficial is it to know I'm supposed to give corn to oxen, oats to horses, rye to my fowls and swine, and barley to the "useful animals?" Where does my German Shephard fit in that list? I'm pretty sure he would pass on barley.

Also, barley for mild drinks? I've really got to get past my hangups and try some of these un-forbidden drinks, rather than just watching my family enjoy the pseudo-forbidden herbal tea.

There is not one single verse in this entire section that doesn't present problems with our modern interpretation or our current understanding of health. How does this qualify, even remotely, as a revelation from and "all knowing" or "all loving" god? It's all just BS.

/rant

I will interrupt the word of wisdom as a follower of Christ. Its all Bullshit !!!! There you have it !!!!

I hope you havent been eating any fruits or vegetables this winter and not in the season thereof!!

The WoW is always a subject of particular absurdism. Its a bit like following the dietary probibitions in liviticus. No bacon or cheeseburgers!!!!! No mixed blend clothing!!!!

If i may tangent. Paul writes about the “curse of the law” and says that if you have a law and dont abide it you are cursed, but christ frees us from those onerous prescriptions! Hallelujah!

Of course mormonism didnt like that. And made many more prepatory laws of their own.

The WoW is one. I dont drink or smoke or anything else, but i dont not because god forbids it. I dont because i feel that it is proper not to. Of course their is nothing wrong with drinking or eating.

There is a gospel principle that is unique. God gives the people what they want. When isreal wanted a king he warned them and then gave it to them.

Same could be argued of the word of wisdom. It was both unnecessary and asked for.

My physician always recommended green tea for flu/colds/nausea type stuff. Of course, he was basing this advice on science rather than Mormonism.

I have had several docs recommend herbal tea with honey for sinus issues and colds. Steam helps to open the sinuses and honey is a natural antibiotic and anti-inflammatory. While the actual effects are minimal, the effect of calming a person and temporary relief can have more more noticeable benefits.

The WOW is a complete mess if you look at it carefully. Not only is most of it not supported by science at all, the way Mormons practice it now is nothing like what is in the text of D&C89.

Thank Heber J. Grant for creating the monstrosity that we have today.

I would offer that leadership roulette extends to the top, hence the current interpretation of the WoW. "Cino" drinks are the current "caffeine" application. Herbs could mean Mary Jane. Hot chocolate isn't a "hot drink". Mild drinks are not beer (which in Brent World are the only "mild" ones).

The power of the Church often lies in the ability to let cultural norms run the show.

Brent wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:07 am

The power of the Church often lies in the ability to let cultural norms run the show.

In many ways the church makes me think of a shady business owner who knows his employees are working off the clock in reaction to a meeting where he says meet unreasonable quotas or else but looks the other way until the Department of Labor comes sniffing when he starts acting all surprised and tries to pin it all on his workers violating labor laws, "I never told them to work off the clock. I even have a blurb here in the orientation packet that says they need to make sure they don't." In particular you saw (and still see) this behavior with regards to homosexuality, they let cultural norms run the course, "Who me? I never said shun your gay child and their partner." It allows them a fantastic level of deniability with membership.

For our Christmas feast for extended (mostly nevermo) family I'm going to insist, since we're doing it a t my house, that we stick to the WoW. Wheat and herbs - that's it!

We always drank herbal tea when I was growing up because my parents used to go to the Swiss temple in the 70s, and it was totally served in the cafeteria there.

iwanttotalk wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:45 pm

Same could be argued of the word of wisdom. It was both unnecessary and asked for.

The WoW nailed some of the items on the list. An addiction to alcohol is bad for you and any use of tobacco is deleterious to your health. The WoW really blew it when it came to tea and coffee. Should have just erased that crazy notion about "hot drinks that warm the belly" and left it at that.

græy wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:08 pm

How beneficial is it to know I'm supposed to give corn to oxen, oats to horses, rye to my fowls and swine, and barley to the "useful animals?" Where does my German Shephard fit in that list? I'm pretty sure he would pass on barley.

Actually oats aren't that great for horses. If a horse owner feeds straight oats they end up with unhealthy horses that have to be supplemented. From an evolutionary point of view horses are grass eaters and only at certain times of the season do they consume the seedheads of the wild grasses.

Consuming only seeds of a domesticated/cultivated grain robs them of necessary nutrients. But of course Joseph would have had no way of knowing that during his day and time. So he wrote what he thought was right. Errr.... Joseph's God got that one wrong....wait that still doesn't work. Okay Joseph wrote the revelation correctly but science just hasn't caught up with him yet. Yeah.... that's what I meant to say.

Palerider wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:11 am

græy wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:08 pm

How beneficial is it to know I'm supposed to give corn to oxen, oats to horses, rye to my fowls and swine, and barley to the "useful animals?" Where does my German Shephard fit in that list? I'm pretty sure he would pass on barley.

Actually oats aren't that great for horses. If a horse owner feeds straight oats they end up with unhealthy horses that have to be supplemented. From an evolutionary point of view horses are grass eaters and only at certain times of the season do they consume the seedheads of the wild grasses.

Consuming only seeds of a domesticated/cultivated grain robs them of necessary nutrients. But of course Joseph would have had no way of knowing that during his day and time. So he wrote what he thought was right. Errr.... Joseph's God got that one wrong....wait that still doesn't work. Okay Joseph wrote the revelation correctly but science just hasn't caught up with him yet. Yeah.... that's what I meant to say.

Rye is not good for "fowls" either.

Palerider wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:11 am

Actually oats aren't that great for horses.

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:34 pm

Rye is not good for "fowls" either.

And wheat is not that great for Man either, especially in these-the-latter-days when so many of God's chosen people have developed gluten intolerance. They always provide a tray of gluten-free sacrament bread in my ward.

But tea and coffee are remarkably and demonstrably good for your health. Nothing puts marrow in your navel like a nice cup o' hot joe on a cold morning.

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:34 pm

Rye is not good for "fowls" either.

In Antarctica, Penguins with a flair for apologetics are drawn toward red herrings.

moksha wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:38 am

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:34 pm

Rye is not good for "fowls" either.

In Antarctica, Penguins with a flair for apologetics are drawn toward red herrings.

I may have lost all credibility for flirting with cigars, but after a lot of research on the WOW, I am convinced that JS incorporated accepted health science of the day into scripture and attributed it to God as a revelation, this included the idea that the temperature of drinks was bad for the body and that tobacco healed bruises. It’s telling to me that he never took it all that seriously.

There are so many problems with our interpretation, from the mild drinks of barley to the hot drinks. I can say coffee has really improved my quality of life. It is something I savor each morning, helps my digestion and has helped me stop drinking soda. A huge glass of cold ice tea in the summer really hits the spot and has no calories (without sugar).

The Seventh Day Adventists also have some wacky health laws from Ellen White that were products of their time. I love their take now, from their website:

THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH RECOGNIZES THE AUTONOMY OF EACH INDIVIDUAL AND HIS OR HER GOD-GIVEN POWER OF CHOICE. RATHER THAN MANDATING STANDARDS OF BEHAVIOR, ADVENTISTS CALL UPON ONE ANOTHER TO LIVE AS POSITIVE EXAMPLES OF GOD’S LOVE AND CARE.
Part of that example includes taking care of our health—we believe God calls us to care for our bodies, treating them with the respect a divine creation deserves. Gluttony and excess, even of something good, can be detrimental to our health. https://www.adventist.org/people/health/

This would make so much more sense for the WOW.

felixfabulous wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:13 pm

I am convinced that JS incorporated accepted health science of the day into scripture and attributed it to God as a revelation, this included the idea that the temperature of drinks was bad for the body and that tobacco healed bruises.

This makes a lot of sense to me - and explains a lot, really.

græy wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:08 pm

While hot drinks are bad, herbs are good. It seems, according to our current cultural interpretation, that "herbs" does not apply to good old MJ but does apply to herbs used to make tea, even though that completely contradicts the preceding verse's warning about hot drinks.

I think there's room to allow coffee, tea, hot chocolate, etc. while still being square with the thing about hot drinks not being for the body or belly.

Leaders love to parse the hell out of scripture looking for wordplay or new interpretations derived from a more literal reading. If they did that with "hot drinks" we could interpret the verse as pragmatic advise. Don't drink stuff that's piping hot. It's okay to drink coffee, tea, etc. ...just let it cool off a little. Don't try to down it when it's 200°.

But these days the WoW isn't about pragmatism or health; it's about cultural identifiers, loyalty tests, and to some degree (pun), "if I had to sacrifice in this way it wouldn't be fair if they didn't have to sacrifice in the same way."