Talking around the issues

[moksha]

I learned a bit of info from visiting the MD&D board. The exact figure we should be talking about is $124 billion. Can any of you financial wizards tell me how much the earnings per day would be with a 7% return on that $124 billion? (don't forget to carry all those zeros).

[Reuben]

Disclaimer: I'm definitely not a financial wizard.

I had fun playing with this investment calculator:

https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/re ... lator.aspx

I had to divide the dollar amounts by 1 million because the calculator won't accept an initial amount greater than $10 million. I don't know how valid the calculations are at larger scales, or with the kinds of investments EPA makes.

With initial at $124 billion, 2.9% inflation and 0% taxes, I get EPA earning just under $5 billion in a year (adjusted downward for inflation).

With initial at $124 billion, adding $1 billion yearly (from tithing revenue), 2.9% inflation and 0% taxes, I get EPA doubling its investments in 15-16 years (adjusted downward for inflation).

[moksha]

I get EPA earning just under $5 billion in a year (adjusted downward for inflation).

Reuben, so how much does this investment pile earn per day for the Church?

[Reuben]

I get EPA earning just under $5 billion in a year (adjusted downward for inflation).

Reuben, so how much does this investment pile earn per day for the Church?

$5 billion / 365 = $13.7 million. I'm not sure it would actually get the money that frequently.

I don't really trust these numbers. I know, for example, that EPA would get money from dividends as well, but I don't know how much.

[moksha]

$5 billion / 365 = $13.7 million. I'm not sure it would actually get the money that frequently.

I don't really trust these numbers. I know, for example, that EPA would get money from dividends as well, but I don't know how much.

There was someone on the MD&D board suggesting around $19 million a day. I have no idea how that was calculated.

[Hagoth]

For most religions, the accumulation of wealth is not an end unto itself. Jesus urged helping the poor and destitute. Helping the poor and destitute has traditionally been considered to be "a good work". The LDS Church has turned this around a bit by using Jesus' own parable of the Widow's Mite to encourage the poor and destitute to tithe so that this too can be invested toward the goal of accumulating wealth.

This.

Can we get this chiseled in stone somewhere?

[Hagoth]

Did the church do anything illegal? After some research I don't think so. Is it following the spirit of the tax code? Depends on the mission of the church. Are they following the mission of the church? Many think yes! That's crazy to me! Many don't seem to think of the church as a charity in the same way they view the salvation army. How else would you classify Christianity if not the salvation army?

I've been thinking about this too. Many of us are disappointed because we expect the church to follow Jesus' admonition to his followers regarding the poor and dispossessed but, although the church loves to wear the veneer of humanitarian Christianity they have never stated charity as their purpose. The hoarding of money and accumulation of wealth, it seems, IS the actual purpose of the church. It falls under the banner of building the kingdom of God on earth. In a way, we are still reeling from our failure to build Zion in Missouri, and so we overcompensate for that failure as a desperate way to show God that we really can build a kingdom for Him. The very real, but comparatively tiny amount of charity done by the church might be cynically seen as a PR tactic to keep appearances that this really is a church, according to legal expectations, and to make it inviting to potential investors (converts). I think it is more likely a way for leaders and members to feel like are following the New Testament Jesus, kind of as icing on the cake for the real goal which might be seen by others as something like what the BoM would call a secret combination. Why? Because it is a huge secret that they have desperately tried to keep you, me, and the IRS from learning about. In that way there are kind of two LDS churches: the one that looks to members like pure Christianity, and the one that looks to leaders like the building of the financial kingdom in the name of God - the real mission.

So, the more money the church hordes the better they are serving God as dictated by their real purpose. If you are truly converted to the church you should accept that and applaud them for their success. They didn't bury their talent, they magnified it admirably in the name of God. Well done, thou good and faithful servants and all that.

[wtfluff]

The hoarding of money and accumulation of wealth, it seems, IS the actual purpose of the church. It falls under the banner of building the kingdom of God on earth.

This.

Joseph believed that he was building an actual "Kingdom." That Kingdom was not just a "church," it was a theocracy that would literally rule the world both politically and religiously. Joseph believed it. Brigham believed it. I'm pretty sure that the current old guys at the top of LD$-Inc. believe it. It's not just about a warm-fuzzy producing church, it's about literally ruling the world. That's why they "need" billions of dollars, and "Huge tracts of land."

[Hagoth]

"Huge tracts of land."

("but let's not bicker and argue about who killed who")

[Reuben]

Many of us are disappointed because we expect the church to follow Jesus' admonition to his followers regarding the poor and dispossessed but, although the church loves to wear the veneer of humanitarian Christianity they have never stated charity as their purpose.

President Monson seemed to try to make it the fourth mission of the church. It didn't stick. Too many other missions? Not enough support?

[Emower]

The hoarding of money and accumulation of wealth, it seems, IS the actual purpose of the church. It falls under the banner of building the kingdom of God on earth.

This.

Joseph believed that he was building an actual "Kingdom." That Kingdom was not just a "church," it was a theocracy that would literally rule the world both politically and religiously. Joseph believed it. Brigham believed it. I'm pretty sure that the current old guys at the top of LD$-Inc. believe it. It's not just about a warm-fuzzy producing church, it's about literally ruling the world. That's why they "need" billions of dollars, and "Huge tracts of land."

Yup. I think this is at the bottom of my disagreement with my tbm family and friends. I think/thought that the church ultimately should be a charity focused on the poor and downtrodden. That is clearly not the main mission of the church. The leaders have a much more nuanced view of what the church should be, and kingdom building (i.e., as you all have pointed out that is the hoarding of wealth) is a major part of that. I would think that the kingdom of God should involve much more helping of the poor, and I would be supported scripturally in that attitude both by the Bible and the book of Mormon. Faithful members disagree. That blows my mind. It's clear to me that this church no longer holds itself very tightly to the scriptures, and the fact that no one cares blows my mind. The fact that I care blows my mind because I don't even believe in those scriptures either.

[Anon70]

I would think that the kingdom of God should involve much more helping of the poor, and I would be supported scripturally in that attitude both by the Bible and the book of Mormon. Faithful members disagree.

This is what I have been annoyed by since my disaffection. The absolute disconnect by TMBs. No matter what is said, what pivot is made, what contradiction, what lack of evidence or explanation-it’s alllll good. God is in charge. The prophet is doing the right thing. I find comments like, “oh so you know better than a prophet of God” not just ridiculous but terrifying.

When people have abdicated their own conscience, their own reason and logic to someone else - well who knows what else they’d believe or do if told to.

I found the videos put out by the church so obviously lacking in any explanation “these funds will be used for the mission of the church” but but but they’re NOT being used. They’re being hoarded and stockpiled. TMBs post those videos and pat themselves and the church on the back for their “righteousness” in saving/believing/whatever. And I think-what happened to thinking things through for ourselves? The members are so happy to be told what to think about everything.

[Palerider]

This.

Joseph believed that he was building an actual "Kingdom." That Kingdom was not just a "church," it was a theocracy that would literally rule the world both politically and religiously. Joseph believed it. Brigham believed it.

I guess Joseph forgot this scripture:

John 18:36

“Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from here’”

There will be a time when the Lord's kingdom will be built here on Earth, but he will oversee it personally from Jerusalem. I'm sure Mormons will be given the opportunity to join that kingdom by renouncing what will then obviously be a fraudulent organization masquerading as a church.

[iwanttotalk]

This.

Joseph believed that he was building an actual "Kingdom." That Kingdom was not just a "church," it was a theocracy that would literally rule the world both politically and religiously. Joseph believed it. Brigham believed it.

I guess Joseph forgot this scripture:

John 18:36

“Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from here’”

There will be a time when the Lord's kingdom will be built here on Earth, but he will oversee it personally from Jerusalem. I'm sure Mormons will be given the opportunity to join that kingdom by renouncing what will then obviously be a fraudulent organization masquerading as a church.

The apostle paul was a dispansationalist. Where christ undid the old religion (judiasm) and replaced it with a new religion (christianity).

You know new wine in old bottles.

However the other apostles werent. They were basically jewish the way christ was during his lifetime.

The same can be said of Josephs time. There were three main groups. Protestants (dispensationalists) catholics (dispensationalists) and new age reformation religions which were primarily restorationists. They wanted to bring back the “whole bible”. Thats where you get the seventh day adventists and the mormons and the jehovas witnesses.

Biblically speaking. Well the bible means whatever you want it to mean.

“Not one jot or tittle shall pass away”

[alas]

This.

Joseph believed that he was building an actual "Kingdom." That Kingdom was not just a "church," it was a theocracy that would literally rule the world both politically and religiously. Joseph believed it. Brigham believed it.

I guess Joseph forgot this scripture:

John 18:36

“Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from here’”

There will be a time when the Lord's kingdom will be built here on Earth, but he will oversee it personally from Jerusalem. I'm sure Mormons will be given the opportunity to join that kingdom by renouncing what will then obviously be a fraudulent organization masquerading as a church.

But from a Mormon view, they are preparing for when Christ comes back, to the temple in SLC, and tells the Saints to move their headquarters to Missouri and build a temple there. See, they are going to need money to buy the temple plot from the reorganized church, ( I think I heard that the formerly RLDS owned the land) and build all the office buildings they will need. And they will need a new conference center, and probably a palace for Christ, and smaller palaces for themselves, and an even bigger church office building, and that New Jerusalem Temple has got to be big and luxurious. 100 B isn’t even going to cut it, so members need to keep cleaning the buildings and be 4-6 wards per building so they can afford all that.

[iwanttotalk]

[quote=Palerider post_id=67528 time=<a href="tel:1577652286">1577652286</a> user_id=309]
[quote=wtfluff post_id=67498 time=<a href="tel:1577562303">1577562303</a> user_id=69]

This.

Joseph believed that he was building an actual "Kingdom." That Kingdom was not just a "church," it was a theocracy that would literally rule the world both politically and religiously. Joseph believed it. Brigham believed it.

I guess Joseph forgot this scripture:

John 18:36

“Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from here’”

There will be a time when the Lord's kingdom will be built here on Earth, but he will oversee it personally from Jerusalem. I'm sure Mormons will be given the opportunity to join that kingdom by renouncing what will then obviously be a fraudulent organization masquerading as a church.
[/quote]
But from a Mormon view, they are preparing for when Christ comes back, to the temple in SLC, and tells the Saints to move their headquarters to Missouri and build a temple there. See, they are going to need money to buy the temple plot from the reorganized church, ( I think I heard that the formerly RLDS owned the land) and build all the office buildings they will need. And they will need a new conference center, and probably a palace for Christ, and smaller palaces for themselves, and an even bigger church office building, and that New Jerusalem Temple has got to be big and luxurious. 100 B isn’t even going to cut it, so members need to keep cleaning the buildings and be 4-6 wards per building so they can afford all that.
[/quote]

This.

Joseph believed that he was building an actual "Kingdom." That Kingdom was not just a "church," it was a theocracy that would literally rule the world both politically and religiously. Joseph believed it. Brigham believed it.

I guess Joseph forgot this scripture:

John 18:36

“Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from here’”

There will be a time when the Lord's kingdom will be built here on Earth, but he will oversee it personally from Jerusalem. I'm sure Mormons will be given the opportunity to join that kingdom by renouncing what will then obviously be a fraudulent organization masquerading as a church.

I think they differentiate between the spiritual and physical kingdoms of god.

Isreal was the physical kingdom of god (as zion will be) and the church is the spiritual. Thus the “fullness of the gospel” incorporates both

[Mormorrisey]

Going back to the original post, the biggest "talking around the issues" of the $124 billion war chest, is exactly how that war chest was accumulated, and how it's being portrayed in the Mormon media. Many articles from newsroom/church news/desert news tells me that this "rainy day fund" is great for the church, and we need to emulate that kind of thrift and saving acumen. Which on the surface is cool, but here's my problem with it.

I'm sure many of us can remember conference talks counselling us to pay our tithing first, before we even pay bills, food, etc. So all these years, I've sacrificed my family's financial well being by paying tithing ON GROSS, (God I want to slap the younger me so friggin' hard) and also sacrificed any "rainy day fund" I might have had, by paying into the church's rainy day fund. That's the real issue for me, and the church ain't even going to touch that one, that this rainy day fund was created on the backs of its own members. Who probably have ZERO rainy day funds available.

I thought of this week, a potential PR solution for the church, that they'd never do. Remember in the Old Testament, the jubilee year? Why doesn't the church say to all its members, "hey, ya'll, we have so much money in the bank, we're going to have a jubilee on tithing this year. Why don't all of you create your own rainy day fund instead of giving it to us? You're welcome!"

Fat chance, though.

[Arcturus]

Going back to the original post, the biggest "talking around the issues" of the $124 billion war chest, is exactly how that war chest was accumulated, and how it's being portrayed in the Mormon media. Many articles from newsroom/church news/desert news tells me that this "rainy day fund" is great for the church, and we need to emulate that kind of thrift and saving acumen. Which on the surface is cool, but here's my problem with it.

I'm sure many of us can remember conference talks counselling us to pay our tithing first, before we even pay bills, food, etc. So all these years, I've sacrificed my family's financial well being by paying tithing ON GROSS, (God I want to slap the younger me so friggin' hard) and also sacrificed any "rainy day fund" I might have had, by paying into the church's rainy day fund. That's the real issue for me, and the church ain't even going to touch that one, that this rainy day fund was created on the backs of its own members. Who probably have ZERO rainy day funds available.

I thought of this week, a potential PR solution for the church, that they'd never do. Remember in the Old Testament, the jubilee year? Why doesn't the church say to all its members, "hey, ya'll, we have so much money in the bank, we're going to have a jubilee on tithing this year. Why don't all of you create your own rainy day fund instead of giving it to us? You're welcome!"

Fat chance, though.

Maybe the big commemoration being touted by RMN for the forthcoming April conference will include a dividend for members! Unlikely, but wouldn't this coming conf be an awesome opportunity for the church to resolve Joseph F. Smith's "prophecy" as fulfilled? Kind of convenient timing, just like the first manifesto.

Joseph F. Smith -- "We expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose...because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God."