Shifting towards gay acceptance?

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Jeffret
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Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by Jeffret » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:43 am

I thought it would be interesting to see if we can rescue some of the valuable parts of the recently deleted thread. (If the moderators don't mind. Let me know if you'd rather just drop the topic for now.)

I found the observations about shifts within the Church to greater acceptance to be interesting. While there are still many problems, which I definitely don't want to downplay, I saw some interesting observations about positive shifts.

Brent observed that the recent incident in Alpine, Utah where two 11 yo girls stood up for a classmate about to be adopted by a gay couple was significant. This really does show a big change in Utah society. Perhaps it isn't directly connected to the Church, but two 11 year olds taking such direct action in a very Mormon community is a big shift. And school administrators moved swiftly and unequivocally to support the kids.

The PoX was a huge counter-example in November 2015. I wasn't surprised at the time because church leaders had just lost a decades long fight they had poured a lot into. But, it's reversal this year is one of the fastest since Joseph ran the Church. (The oral sex ban might qualify but it was never really reversed nor published.)

LoveLoud is a big event in SLC. While it has had some problems its message of loving acceptance has certainly had an impact.

In 2008, openly disagreeing with the Church on marriage equality was the fastest route to church discipline. That changed about as soon as Prop 8, in the ensuing backlash. There are still issues, as a missionary recently found, but there are many members who openly support LGBT people and and issues. Such as my active, believing relative who openly wears a Pride bracelet and supports LGBT friends and ward members.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by Jeffret » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:46 am

I'm not trying to exclude counter-examples from this thread, so share them as well. Certainly Oaks continues his hateful speech. In the recent discussion, my believing relative lambasted his statements and expressed grave concern for his impact. He will never change.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by Jeffret » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:47 am

Remembered another positive one: FamilySearch recording gay marriages.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Hagoth
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by Hagoth » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:10 pm

When I was TBM I heard other TBMs bemoaning the fact that members of the church are usually a couple of decades behind "the world" in tolerating social change. Too quick for them. They see it as a win for Satan. Now I hear exmos bemoaning the same time delay, but because it's too slow for them. They see it as a win for bigotry.

I think we're going to see more changes in the church over the next 20 years than we've seen since the handcarts arrived. At least I hope so.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Anon70
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by Anon70 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:40 pm

I came late to the drama yesterday but I read the post before it got deleted and I shocked my kids by reading them some of the more awful statements. All of my kids are millennials (I think) and I agree they won’t tolerate this bigotry/discrimination. I have one out, one with his foot out and two more waiting til adulthood to get out. I don’t know that if the church changes this policy they’d stay. The church requires too much and gives back too little.

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blazerb
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by blazerb » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:07 pm

I am now old enough to see an arc of change. I remember when the church told us not only that same sex marriage was bad, but anything that looked like it was bad. It was obviously condemning civil unions which were floated as an alternative to marriage. When reality set in that persons in same-sex relationships wanted to have legal standing, the church backed down and suddenly was on the civil union bandwagon. They still fought against gay marriage fiercely. When the courts decided that had to end, the church said ok, but imposed the PoX. When that PR disaster was recognized, the church removed PoX but is now trying to keep people from talking about LGBT issues in church, at least in ways that "distract" from Jesus Christ. That ambiguous standard will probably be on the books for a long time, but will be interpreted very differently in Seattle and in Manti. Progress will happen, but it will happen slowly.

I think the only reason same-sex relationships are recognized in Family Search is the problem it causes when legal relationships are not acknowledged. TBM's demanded the ability to record what happened.

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Emower
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by Emower » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:35 pm

Kind of a counter-point? I think it will remain easier to justify resistance to the LGBTQ rights movement than it was/is for racial civil rights. I would still like to discuss the parallels to the civil rights movement.

I still think it is hard to justify racism (although we have uncovered the fact that there is a continued undercurrent of this in our society lately) based on the analysis of "choice." There are clear visual indications that someone from another race did not choose that race. They were born into it. This makes it difficult, but not impossible, to hold that against them. People are still racist, and sometimes very public and outspoken about it. But it is pretty hard to represent that racism as justified.
Contrast this to being anywhere on the sexual or gender spectrum. In very few cases are there outward or visual signs that someone is gay or trans. This makes it exponentially harder for people to understand that it might not be a "choice," and not just "young people fooling around, " or as we saw in the previous thread, some deep state conspiracy.

I agree that there is going to be a shift towards more acceptance, but I think it is going to look differently and might result in more splintering than did the full acceptance of all races. I dont know what that splintering looks like, whether it is just more undercurrents of fundamentals vs. progressives (e.g., the real Mormons dont consort with those progressives), or a full blown break off church?

If the church tried to make a major move now, they might face a break off church. Some of my TBM family expressed that to me a few years ago.
If they wait 30-40 years, they might not have to face that kind of mutiny, but what it the membership going to look like? I think what they are trying to do now, possibly, is give signals for those progressives to hold on and they will eventually get there? But, Oaks sure gets in the way of those signals.

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Jeffret
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by Jeffret » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:52 pm

blazerb wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:07 pm
I think the only reason same-sex relationships are recognized in Family Search is the problem it causes when legal relationships are not acknowledged. TBM's demanded the ability to record what happened.
Sometimes the Church has a problem accepting reality so I still consider this a positive.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by Jeffret » Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:33 pm

Emower wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:35 pm
I still think it is hard to justify racism (although we have uncovered the fact that there is a continued undercurrent of this in our society lately) based on the analysis of "choice." There are clear visual indications that someone from another race did not choose that race. They were born into it. This makes it difficult, but not impossible, to hold that against them. People are still racist, and sometimes very public and outspoken about it. But it is pretty hard to represent that racism as justified.
Contrast this to being anywhere on the sexual or gender spectrum. In very few cases are there outward or visual signs that someone is gay or trans. This makes it exponentially harder for people to understand that it might not be a "choice," and not just "young people fooling around, " or as we saw in the previous thread, some deep state conspiracy.
These are definitely good points. It's why the anti-gays fought so hard to paint LGBT as a choice. It was a major talking point in briefs and arguments leading up to and including the Obergefell case. If they could make it seen as a choice, they felt they could present it as unimportant, as something that could be a moral issue for other people to control.

But, it didn't really work out. The pro-gay side pretty much side-stepped the question. They argued it was irrelevant. Some pointed out that those making that distinction were doing so on the basis of religion, a protected class which is at least as much of a choice as sexual orientation. This approach won in court, but more importantly in the public perception. People, particularly the younger generation, don't really care if it's a choice or not. And it's their approach that is filtering through society.

There's a counter-point to your counter-point, though, that I find rather intriguing. With race, say for example African-Americans, it is easier to establish the in-group and the out-group. They tend to stay nicely and neatly segregated. Black parents expect to have children that look somewhat like them and encounter problems that they did. White parents expect to have white children. Sometimes there are "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?" situations where even progressive parents face their biases. These primarily involve adults and not children.

The situation is very different with LGBT people. Any family may find out at practically any point that they have a member of an out-group. Maybe a parent or spouse comes out. A beloved uncle or aunt. A vulnerable child. An 11 year old who just needs a family. This makes it potentially everyone's problem. No one is necessarily immune. Even the most righteous believer or homophobe may find it hit very close to home. The bishop's daughter who comes out as a lesbian. In society we often don't know that we're supposed to be treating an LGBT person differently because they blend in. Until we actually know them as a person and understand about their family life or their desires, we treat them the same.
Emower wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:35 pm
I agree that there is going to be a shift towards more acceptance, but I think it is going to look differently and might result in more splintering than did the full acceptance of all races. I dont know what that splintering looks like, whether it is just more undercurrents of fundamentals vs. progressives (e.g., the real Mormons dont consort with those progressives), or a full blown break off church?
Don't forget that there were a lot of people that were really upset at the 1978 revelation.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Hagoth
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by Hagoth » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:30 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:33 pm

Don't forget that there were a lot of people that were really upset at the 1978 revelation.
And again with the race and priesthood essay (at least the tiny handful who read it).
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Brent
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by Brent » Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:23 am

The trick isn't finding an over 40 year that's got issues with gay marriage -- it's finding an under 30. This will be change from the ground up. As mentioned most LDS and LDS related folks keep it off the radar...but once Cosmo is out you can't hide him again.

The new handbook has a very interesting perspective on this, the idea being coming out over the pulpit is inappropriate use of the opportunity, but that cuts both ways--so is homophobic speech. We're seeing an elemental change in views based on age. This mimics the way things went before the ban was lifted. The future is a rainbow.

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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by moksha » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:43 am

Good point. The hatred of gays has not carried over into the majority of young people. As the musical South Pacific pointed out, you have to be carefully taught to hate and the lessons from the pulpit have not been as instructive on this subject as have the lessons of tolerance from the rest of society.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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glass shelf
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by glass shelf » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:10 pm

I still remember the day that my then-8yo son came home and told me all about MLK Jr. and asked me if I could believe that people used to mean to black people. He honestly had no idea in his little world that was ever considered normal. (I realized he needed some education about it so that he could understand why it matters, and we've worked on that.)

I have lots of hope that the exact same thing will happen with my potential grandkids and bigotry. Sadly, my kids are aware of how much other people have issues with their gay family members although they don't understand what the problem is.

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Brent
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by Brent » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:30 pm

Also in the lexicon of the church "LGBTQ" is now far more commonly used than SSA (Same Sex Attracted).

*** Just used LDSliving with its own search tool:
LGBTQ gets 50+ returns
Same Sex Attracted = 0
Same Sex Attraction = 0

That's saying something.
Last edited by Brent on Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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glass shelf
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by glass shelf » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:20 pm

Brent wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:30 pm
Also in the lexicon of the church "LGBTQ" is now far more commonly used than SSA (Same Sex Attracted).

*** Just used LDSliving with its own search tool:
LGBTQ gets 50+ returns
Same Sex Attracted = 0
Same Sex Attraction = 0

That's saving something.
I think that's huge!

It's a shift from "choice" to "identity" in my perspective, and that is a giant change and a big step towards acceptance.

(I'm still on team IHopeTheLDSChurchDisappearsForever, but if it has to stick around, I'm all for any steps towards kindness and acceptance.)

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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by wtfluff » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:04 pm

glass shelf wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:20 pm
(I'm still on team IHopeTheLDSChurchDisappearsForever, but if it has to stick around, I'm all for any steps towards kindness and acceptance.)
Look at that! Another T-Shirt I "need."

#IHopeTheLDSChurchDisappearsForever
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Emower
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by Emower » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:13 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:33 pm
There's a counter-point to your counter-point, though, that I find rather intriguing. With race, say for example African-Americans, it is easier to establish the in-group and the out-group. They tend to stay nicely and neatly segregated. Black parents expect to have children that look somewhat like them and encounter problems that they did. White parents expect to have white children. Sometimes there are "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?" situations where even progressive parents face their biases. These primarily involve adults and not children.

The situation is very different with LGBT people. Any family may find out at practically any point that they have a member of an out-group. Maybe a parent or spouse comes out. A beloved uncle or aunt. A vulnerable child. An 11 year old who just needs a family. This makes it potentially everyone's problem. No one is necessarily immune. Even the most righteous believer or homophobe may find it hit very close to home. The bishop's daughter who comes out as a lesbian. In society we often don't know that we're supposed to be treating an LGBT person differently because they blend in. Until we actually know them as a person and understand about their family life or their desires, we treat them the same.
That's an interesting thought. Lots more emotion and "it could be me" type of feelings with gay issues. That makes resistance to gay rights pretty difficult to swallow. Some people do it, and they are put on a pedestal by the church, but they are likely the minority.
Jeffret wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:33 pm
I agree that there is going to be a shift towards more acceptance, but I think it is going to look differently and might result in more splintering than did the full acceptance of all races. I dont know what that splintering looks like, whether it is just more undercurrents of fundamentals vs. progressives (e.g., the real Mormons dont consort with those progressives), or a full blown break off church?
Don't forget that there were a lot of people that were really upset at the 1978 revelation.
I'm definitely not forgetting, I'm saying that those upset people in 1978 might have found their anger harder to justify than the people who may be angry with a similar revelation in 2030 about acceptance of homosexuality. But maybe not, as you point out by that time it might be just as clear that this isn't an, ahem, "black and white issue."

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glass shelf
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by glass shelf » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:35 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:04 pm
glass shelf wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:20 pm
(I'm still on team IHopeTheLDSChurchDisappearsForever, but if it has to stick around, I'm all for any steps towards kindness and acceptance.)
Look at that! Another T-Shirt I "need."

#IHopeTheLDSChurchDisappearsForever
I mean, maybe I could abbreviate it #IHTLCDF It's a lot kinder than the one that used to float around on reddit #BITFDWT.

I did get a new T-shirt press for Christmas. #notkidding

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Brent
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by Brent » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:41 pm

In my lifetime:

1978 Priesthood ban lifted. No schism. (Schism defined as the formal separation of a Church into two Churches or the secession of a group owing to doctrinal and other differences)

1990 Huge changes to temple endowment includes penalties removed, language changes like removing "Popes and priests", Eve no longer causes the fall...no schism.

Recently shortened Church, elimination of High Priest groups, exclusion of children of married Gays, inclusion of the children of gays, various changes to age and availability of missionaries, elevation of RS and YW presidencies, removal of YM presidencies, hymnal change, any baptized member can act as official witness...no schism.

The average Latter-day isn't going to leave the Church over same sex marriage being OK.

Good resource: https://religionnews.com/2019/06/18/20- ... eration-z/

Reuben
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Re: Shifting towards gay acceptance?

Post by Reuben » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:42 pm

glass shelf wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:35 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:04 pm
glass shelf wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:20 pm
(I'm still on team IHopeTheLDSChurchDisappearsForever, but if it has to stick around, I'm all for any steps towards kindness and acceptance.)
Look at that! Another T-Shirt I "need."

#IHopeTheLDSChurchDisappearsForever
I mean, maybe I could abbreviate it #IHTLCDF It's a lot kinder than the one that used to float around on reddit #BITFDWT.

I did get a new T-shirt press for Christmas. #notkidding
You might need to start taking orders, dude.

I want it to disappear, too. Ideally, for the family I have with their minds and hearts entangled with it, it would "disappear" by being replaced with something better.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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