Why Priesthood At All?

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
iwanttotalk
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:20 pm

Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by iwanttotalk » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:12 pm

Arcturus wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:51 pm
iwanttotalk wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:43 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:22 pm
Knock it off.

Boys are the majority of suicides. Boys are the majority of homeless. Boys are the primary victims of violent crime. They perform more poorly in school and have less access to college. Do we here about how sperm counts and testosterone are dropping without bottom and will result in basically every western male being sterile in 50 years? Or the gutting of the male economy in 2008 and its failure to recover as they spout platitudes about “male power” as they are dying in uncountable deaths of despair?

Everyday we stand silent to this kind of open bigorty is another needless death of a young man whose life has value. This is not some esoteric whataboutism. It is a national emergency. If we do not stand agaisnt this kind of soft violence, then we are complicit. Silence is death. Litterally a matter of life and death.

Boys you are worthwile. You are loved. It will get better.
Dude. You're okay to believe these things...

Your belief/opinion on misandry is less of an issue than how you're communicating your beliefs/opinions. If this is how you communicate with women in real life then I am not surprised that you "have been abused by women severly and am hyper sensitive to women that hate men."

Please take note of CaptainSalty's comment here and calm down man. If you want to revise my beliefs and open my eyes to the issues of misandry in society today, you really are doing yourself a disservice in how you're doing so as a messenger.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4845
“Politeness” is a component of supremacy. Its why they called black people who spoke out agaisnt opression “uppity negroes” and told them to “know their place.”

Because abuse thrives in silence. The level of vitrol and psychological abuse you tolerate is inhumane. You may think you are okay with it because of internalized misandry.

Did you know that Martin Luther King Jr. couldnt even get marchers? Or that he had to hold marches when people got off work to pad the numbers? Or that he had to force conflict to get heard?

Silence is death. This open hatred does not come out of a vacuum and go into one. It harms perceptably. You dont recognize that harm because of your privledge. Privledge is blindness to opression. But people who have been marginalized see it and feel it everday. And its not your place to tell them it doesnt exist or to calm down.

In my previous post i explain why. Inspite of proclomations otherwise boys are heavily marginalized and have the highest objective rates of adverse outcomes. From suicide, to education, to employment, homelessness, drugs use, incarceration, and deaths of despair.

Im here to say its okay to know youre loved. That your not evil because you are a man. And that intolerance and bigotry agaisnt men is prolific and has consiquences. That isnt a bad message. Its one that needs to be said.

Fiat justitia ruat caelum

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Red Ryder
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:18 pm

First off, go spend time reading all of Alas’s prior posts and understand her life experience inside the church and out before you make judgement.

Second, your “call out culture” isn’t going to work here. What’s next? White privilege? Wealth distribution?

The demographics of NOM are far more skewed towards males outnumbering females. There have been many discussions regarding patriarchy and the church. Your comments have yet to focus on the OP so your comments are derailing the post.

Third, knock it off or leave.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

iwanttotalk
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:20 pm

Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by iwanttotalk » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:40 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:18 pm
First off, go spend time reading all of Alas’s prior posts and understand her life experience inside the church and out before you make judgement.

Second, your “call out culture” isn’t going to work here. What’s next? White privilege? Wealth distribution?

The demographics of NOM are far more skewed towards males outnumbering females. There have been many discussions regarding patriarchy and the church. Your comments have yet to focus on the OP so your comments are derailing the post.

Third, knock it off or leave.
I was done after my first comment. But you all wont let it go. I dont think misandry is a valuable or protected form of expression.

But you dogpile because “there arent bad tactics only bad people.” Your point wasnt to listen to the validity of what i said but to attack and bellitle me in your purile way

“Were you an 8 year old girl when you got hurt” teehee.
Then once emasculation and insults dont work you move on to
“If this is how you communicate with women in real life, im not suprised that you have been abused by women and are hyper sensitive to it.”

Nice victim blaming. Im sure as an 8 year old i was the reason i was abused. Why are you so mean and hurtful?

I just wanted to talk about mormon stuff. You know i said something to alas because i thought she needed to here it. Her misandry is misfounded not all men are evil and these foundationless accusations are harmful. There are plenty of places on the internet for her to express and explore her overt hatred of men. But i feel incapable of participating because it triggers me. Im all for her working through her bigotry.

This is a place for mormon discussion for those with one foot in and one foot out of mormonism. To me that is not her. She is here as a hard feminist with a daughter who is a “pagan preistess” who think bishops only use their powers to seduce and abuse young girls. Its warped. And it shouldnt be accepted. The very notion that she should be allowed to spout this kind of hatred without any form of adjudication is evidence of how much power she has accumulated. She is allowed to say whatever hateful harmul nonsense she wants and anyone who expresses discontent with that is silenced. Thats far out man. To think thats a normal kind of state of affairs.

As for the priesthood, it was just an appeal to authority. Melchezidec, moses, and jesus had the priesthood so to be authentic and authoritative they needed it too.

Most congregations believe in “the preisthood of all believers”. That it is the right of all believers to be part of the body of christ.

Js was a restorationist so he wanted to have the whole bible. Which means the levitical preisthood.

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alas
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by alas » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:26 pm

iwanttotalk wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:40 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:18 pm
First off, go spend time reading all of Alas’s prior posts and understand her life experience inside the church and out before you make judgement.

Second, your “call out culture” isn’t going to work here. What’s next? White privilege? Wealth distribution?

The demographics of NOM are far more skewed towards males outnumbering females. There have been many discussions regarding patriarchy and the church. Your comments have yet to focus on the OP so your comments are derailing the post.

Third, knock it off or leave.
I was done after my first comment. But you all wont let it go. I dont think misandry is a valuable or protected form of expression.

But you dogpile because “there arent bad tactics only bad people.” Your point wasnt to listen to the validity of what i said but to attack and bellitle me in your purile way

“Were you an 8 year old girl when you got hurt” teehee.
Then once emasculation and insults dont work you move on to
“If this is how you communicate with women in real life, im not suprised that you have been abused by women and are hyper sensitive to it.”

Nice victim blaming. Im sure as an 8 year old i was the reason i was abused. Why are you so mean and hurtful?

I just wanted to talk about mormon stuff. You know i said something to alas because i thought she needed to here it. Her misandry is misfounded not all men are evil and these foundationless accusations are harmful. There are plenty of places on the internet for her to express and explore her overt hatred of men. But i feel incapable of participating because it triggers me. Im all for her working through her bigotry.

This is a place for mormon discussion for those with one foot in and one foot out of mormonism. To me that is not her. She is here as a hard feminist with a daughter who is a “pagan preistess” who think bishops only use their powers to seduce and abuse young girls. Its warped. And it shouldnt be accepted. The very notion that she should be allowed to spout this kind of hatred without any form of adjudication is evidence of how much power she has accumulated. She is allowed to say whatever hateful harmul nonsense she wants and anyone who expresses discontent with that is silenced. Thats far out man. To think thats a normal kind of state of affairs.

As for the priesthood, it was just an appeal to authority. Melchezidec, moses, and jesus had the priesthood so to be authentic and authoritative they needed it too.

Most congregations believe in “the preisthood of all believers”. That it is the right of all believers to be part of the body of christ.

Js was a restorationist so he wanted to have the whole bible. Which means the levitical preisthood.
Telling my experience s not misandry any more than you stating your experience is misogyny. So, please do not come on here and tell me what my experience in the church was. I was treated as not worth as much as a child molester. By men, in the Mormon Church. Personally, I think I have every right to hate men, but I don’t. I rather like men and have more male friends than female friends. But you don’t know that because you don’t know me. I never was angry at all men. Ask the men around here how often I get pissed at a man. Maybe twice in the 10 years I have been on NOM. And lucky you, you are too quick to feel persecuted and so you attack and yes, I attacked back. My experience in life is not misandrist. It is my experience and you have no right to tell me that my experience is anything but true. So, shut up and listen.

I like men...well, most men. Right now you happen to be on the shit list. I hang around in this very male dominated forum because I really really like the men on here. I will promise to like you too, if you get the chip off your shoulder, and start listening to people, really listen before you attack.

iwanttotalk
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:20 pm

Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by iwanttotalk » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:31 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:26 pm
iwanttotalk wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:40 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:18 pm
First off, go spend time reading all of Alas’s prior posts and understand her life experience inside the church and out before you make judgement.

Second, your “call out culture” isn’t going to work here. What’s next? White privilege? Wealth distribution?

The demographics of NOM are far more skewed towards males outnumbering females. There have been many discussions regarding patriarchy and the church. Your comments have yet to focus on the OP so your comments are derailing the post.

Third, knock it off or leave.
I was done after my first comment. But you all wont let it go. I dont think misandry is a valuable or protected form of expression.

But you dogpile because “there arent bad tactics only bad people.” Your point wasnt to listen to the validity of what i said but to attack and bellitle me in your purile way

“Were you an 8 year old girl when you got hurt” teehee.
Then once emasculation and insults dont work you move on to
“If this is how you communicate with women in real life, im not suprised that you have been abused by women and are hyper sensitive to it.”

Nice victim blaming. Im sure as an 8 year old i was the reason i was abused. Why are you so mean and hurtful?

I just wanted to talk about mormon stuff. You know i said something to alas because i thought she needed to here it. Her misandry is misfounded not all men are evil and these foundationless accusations are harmful. There are plenty of places on the internet for her to express and explore her overt hatred of men. But i feel incapable of participating because it triggers me. Im all for her working through her bigotry.

This is a place for mormon discussion for those with one foot in and one foot out of mormonism. To me that is not her. She is here as a hard feminist with a daughter who is a “pagan preistess” who think bishops only use their powers to seduce and abuse young girls. Its warped. And it shouldnt be accepted. The very notion that she should be allowed to spout this kind of hatred without any form of adjudication is evidence of how much power she has accumulated. She is allowed to say whatever hateful harmul nonsense she wants and anyone who expresses discontent with that is silenced. Thats far out man. To think thats a normal kind of state of affairs.

As for the priesthood, it was just an appeal to authority. Melchezidec, moses, and jesus had the priesthood so to be authentic and authoritative they needed it too.

Most congregations believe in “the preisthood of all believers”. That it is the right of all believers to be part of the body of christ.

Js was a restorationist so he wanted to have the whole bible. Which means the levitical preisthood.
Telling my experience s not misandry any more than you stating your experience is misogyny. So, please do not come on here and tell me what my experience in the church was. I was treated as not worth as much as a child molester. By men, in the Mormon Church. Personally, I think I have every right to hate men, but I don’t. I rather like men and have more male friends than female friends. But you don’t know that because you don’t know me. I never was angry at all men. Ask the men around here how often I get pissed at a man. Maybe twice in the 10 years I have been on NOM. And lucky you, you are too quick to feel persecuted and so you attack and yes, I attacked back. My experience in life is not misandrist. It is my experience and you have no right to tell me that my experience is anything but true. So, shut up and listen.

I like men...well, most men. Right now you happen to be on the shit list. I hang around in this very male dominated forum because I really really like the men on here. I will promise to like you too, if you get the chip off your shoulder, and start listening to people, really listen before you attack.
No. You dont have the right to treat everyman as a child molester and abuse all maleness with your accusations.

Misandry is not an acceptable form of expression and you need to correct your behavior.

If you had a crime committed agaisnt you, go to the police. That is not the same as year after year spouting your vitrolic poisionous hatred of men.

iwanttotalk
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:20 pm

Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by iwanttotalk » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:34 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:26 pm
iwanttotalk wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:40 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:18 pm
First off, go spend time reading all of Alas’s prior posts and understand her life experience inside the church and out before you make judgement.

Second, your “call out culture” isn’t going to work here. What’s next? White privilege? Wealth distribution?

The demographics of NOM are far more skewed towards males outnumbering females. There have been many discussions regarding patriarchy and the church. Your comments have yet to focus on the OP so your comments are derailing the post.

Third, knock it off or leave.
I was done after my first comment. But you all wont let it go. I dont think misandry is a valuable or protected form of expression.

But you dogpile because “there arent bad tactics only bad people.” Your point wasnt to listen to the validity of what i said but to attack and bellitle me in your purile way

“Were you an 8 year old girl when you got hurt” teehee.
Then once emasculation and insults dont work you move on to
“If this is how you communicate with women in real life, im not suprised that you have been abused by women and are hyper sensitive to it.”

Nice victim blaming. Im sure as an 8 year old i was the reason i was abused. Why are you so mean and hurtful?

I just wanted to talk about mormon stuff. You know i said something to alas because i thought she needed to here it. Her misandry is misfounded not all men are evil and these foundationless accusations are harmful. There are plenty of places on the internet for her to express and explore her overt hatred of men. But i feel incapable of participating because it triggers me. Im all for her working through her bigotry.

This is a place for mormon discussion for those with one foot in and one foot out of mormonism. To me that is not her. She is here as a hard feminist with a daughter who is a “pagan preistess” who think bishops only use their powers to seduce and abuse young girls. Its warped. And it shouldnt be accepted. The very notion that she should be allowed to spout this kind of hatred without any form of adjudication is evidence of how much power she has accumulated. She is allowed to say whatever hateful harmul nonsense she wants and anyone who expresses discontent with that is silenced. Thats far out man. To think thats a normal kind of state of affairs.

As for the priesthood, it was just an appeal to authority. Melchezidec, moses, and jesus had the priesthood so to be authentic and authoritative they needed it too.

Most congregations believe in “the preisthood of all believers”. That it is the right of all believers to be part of the body of christ.

Js was a restorationist so he wanted to have the whole bible. Which means the levitical preisthood.
Telling my experience s not misandry any more than you stating your experience is misogyny. So, please do not come on here and tell me what my experience in the church was. I was treated as not worth as much as a child molester. By men, in the Mormon Church. Personally, I think I have every right to hate men, but I don’t. I rather like men and have more male friends than female friends. But you don’t know that because you don’t know me. I never was angry at all men. Ask the men around here how often I get pissed at a man. Maybe twice in the 10 years I have been on NOM. And lucky you, you are too quick to feel persecuted and so you attack and yes, I attacked back. My experience in life is not misandrist. It is my experience and you have no right to tell me that my experience is anything but true. So, shut up and listen.

I like men...well, most men. Right now you happen to be on the shit list. I hang around in this very male dominated forum because I really really like the men on here. I will promise to like you too, if you get the chip off your shoulder, and start listening to people, really listen before you attack.
Ohhh, the stories you make up about how men in the church are evil arent even real. They are pure fantasies made up by your persecution complex to justify your delusions.

Youre mad at me, not because im wrong, but because im making you face reality. The church doesnt teach say believe or condone any of the things you say it does.

User avatar
alas
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by alas » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:43 pm

iwanttotalk wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:31 pm
alas wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:26 pm
iwanttotalk wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:40 pm


I was done after my first comment. But you all wont let it go. I dont think misandry is a valuable or protected form of expression.

But you dogpile because “there arent bad tactics only bad people.” Your point wasnt to listen to the validity of what i said but to attack and bellitle me in your purile way

“Were you an 8 year old girl when you got hurt” teehee.
Then once emasculation and insults dont work you move on to
“If this is how you communicate with women in real life, im not suprised that you have been abused by women and are hyper sensitive to it.”

Nice victim blaming. Im sure as an 8 year old i was the reason i was abused. Why are you so mean and hurtful?

I just wanted to talk about mormon stuff. You know i said something to alas because i thought she needed to here it. Her misandry is misfounded not all men are evil and these foundationless accusations are harmful. There are plenty of places on the internet for her to express and explore her overt hatred of men. But i feel incapable of participating because it triggers me. Im all for her working through her bigotry.

This is a place for mormon discussion for those with one foot in and one foot out of mormonism. To me that is not her. She is here as a hard feminist with a daughter who is a “pagan preistess” who think bishops only use their powers to seduce and abuse young girls. Its warped. And it shouldnt be accepted. The very notion that she should be allowed to spout this kind of hatred without any form of adjudication is evidence of how much power she has accumulated. She is allowed to say whatever hateful harmul nonsense she wants and anyone who expresses discontent with that is silenced. Thats far out man. To think thats a normal kind of state of affairs.

As for the priesthood, it was just an appeal to authority. Melchezidec, moses, and jesus had the priesthood so to be authentic and authoritative they needed it too.

Most congregations believe in “the preisthood of all believers”. That it is the right of all believers to be part of the body of christ.

Js was a restorationist so he wanted to have the whole bible. Which means the levitical preisthood.
Telling my experience s not misandry any more than you stating your experience is misogyny. So, please do not come on here and tell me what my experience in the church was. I was treated as not worth as much as a child molester. By men, in the Mormon Church. Personally, I think I have every right to hate men, but I don’t. I rather like men and have more male friends than female friends. But you don’t know that because you don’t know me. I never was angry at all men. Ask the men around here how often I get pissed at a man. Maybe twice in the 10 years I have been on NOM. And lucky you, you are too quick to feel persecuted and so you attack and yes, I attacked back. My experience in life is not misandrist. It is my experience and you have no right to tell me that my experience is anything but true. So, shut up and listen.

I like men...well, most men. Right now you happen to be on the shit list. I hang around in this very male dominated forum because I really really like the men on here. I will promise to like you too, if you get the chip off your shoulder, and start listening to people, really listen before you attack.
No. You dont have the right to treat everyman as a child molester and abuse all maleness with your accusations.

Misandry is not an acceptable form of expression and you need to correct your behavior.

If you had a crime committed agaisnt you, go to the police. That is not the same as year after year spouting your vitrolic poisionous hatred of men.
Again, bullsh*t. I have never said that all men were child molesters. I said specific things about how men tried to tell me that priesthood was no biggy and I was evil to want it, when I don’t want it any “priesthood” because I don’t believe it is anything more than a made up power that men invented to have “authority” over others. The Catholic Church was the ones in Christianity to invent authority over the common folk. So Joseph Smith is actually an improvement.

If men have treated me badly, I have a right to say it. If men have said crap in trying to convince me that priesthood is nothing to envy, then I can repeat those comments. So get off your whole misandry thing. You do not know me and have no valid evidence of any of your accusations. So, shut up and listen to other people. You might learn something if you stop attacking others and open up to the fact that people have experience that is different than yours. People can even like you and have different experience than yours.

And I refuse to respond any more to your paranoid stupidity.

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blazerb
Posts: 679
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:35 pm

Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by blazerb » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:07 pm

I just want to thank Alas for helping to identify abuse committed against a man by a woman in a very old thread that I won't link to. She is extremely fair. The church, on the other hand, is not fair to women. There is not much doubt about that.

Arcturus
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:10 pm

Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Arcturus » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:18 pm

iwanttotalk wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:14 am
In the entire time ive known you, i dont recall one complimentary thing youve said about men. Your misandry makes it hard to be here. I constantly feel attacked and marginalized, and forced to give into your delusions about the evil nature of masculinty and manhood.
iwanttotalk - Just so I'm clear, I see no misandry in any of alas's comments. I personally experienced the same type of rhetoric when I was growing up. For boys, we are to desire and seek for priesthood power. For girls, you are to support the priesthood as "help meets" and have a different spiritual role in the plan of salvation via mothering children. This doesn't mean that every man in the church, including you -- iwanttotalk -- feels this way. Nevertheless, these ideas permeate...

I went to BYU's Marriott School and two of my friends, who are women, received counsel by two different business professors, when asking them for career advice and guidance, that they should not apply to the Marriott School. They were both told that the b-school is very competitive and they would risk taking the spot of a bread-winning man while their future place in their family and church was at home caring for the children. Not bread winning. My friends were literally traumatized from these events and considered leaving BYU.
Your misandry makes it hard to be here. I constantly feel attacked and marginalized...
If anyone is making it hard to be here it's you iwanttotalk. The attacking and marginalizing started with you. Maybe it would be better for you, inasmuch as you're getting triggered, to not participate on NOM.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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Jeffret
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 6:49 pm

Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Jeffret » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:12 pm

Arcturus wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:47 pm
Bill asked Greg about the priesthood restoration, and Greg had interesting things to say. He said something to the effect, the priesthood is two things 1) authority, and 2) supernatural power. He went on to say that the church's take on authority has been very fluid throughout all of history, and it seems like the priesthood restoration was mainly a matter of authority rather than power. Greg cited a 1931 improvement era article titled "Why Priesthood at All?", which I found and have added as note below. Greg seems to make the case that the importance of priesthood is authority, not power. It seems to me that Greg doesn't want to talk much about the supernatural characteristics of priesthood that TBMs now seem to primarily attribute to Mormon priesthood.
I made the same distinction as Greg years ago, though I used different terms. I called #1 hierarchical authority. I can't recall what term I used for #2 -- Greg's term will do sufficiently well. The Church likes to talk about supernatural power, though they've been backing off that over the years, but what they really concentrate on is hierarchical authority. Joseph needed to establish his singular authority to be in charge. Brigham consolidated authority. Today's Church is run on a hierarchical corporate model, primarily by businessmen on capitalist business models.
Arcturus wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:47 pm
I'm curious what you all think about Greg Prince's, and any others in his camp for that matter (Givens, Bushman), view on Mormon supernaturalism. Do you think he believes the priesthood actually gives you supernatural power?
That's hard to say without asking him or them directly. Certainly a lot of people do believe in supernaturalism, though ones who come across as reasonable and rational seem to believe in it in more of a theoretical fashion most of the time.

While I have a hard time saying that I believe in supernaturalism, I still think there can be value in some of the Mormon priesthood (as a power to serve towards good) activities. While faith healing is dubious at best, a blessing of comfort really can convey comfort for those that want it to. Shared rituals can be meaningful. Human service and touch can be beneficial.

Where it dramatically breaks down for me with the Mormon priesthood is the whole exclusivity. If there is anything to the idea of supernatural / shared / community / healing / creative power, it clearly is the domain of women at least as much as men. Excluding it from them is simply men trying trying to assert control over something that isn't really exclusively theirs. And the hierarchical authority is exclusive to me only because the men insist on keeping it that way. And the more of that hierarchical authority a man has the more likely they are to insist on retaining that exclusivity. (Joseph had something interesting to say about that, one of the most true, profound things he said.)

I would say that the promise of supernatural power is one of the big lies the hierarchy uses to maintain exclusive control to hierarchical authority.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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alas
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by alas » Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:21 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:12 pm
Arcturus wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:47 pm
Bill asked Greg about the priesthood restoration, and Greg had interesting things to say. He said something to the effect, the priesthood is two things 1) authority, and 2) supernatural power. He went on to say that the church's take on authority has been very fluid throughout all of history, and it seems like the priesthood restoration was mainly a matter of authority rather than power. Greg cited a 1931 improvement era article titled "Why Priesthood at All?", which I found and have added as note below. Greg seems to make the case that the importance of priesthood is authority, not power. It seems to me that Greg doesn't want to talk much about the supernatural characteristics of priesthood that TBMs now seem to primarily attribute to Mormon priesthood.
I made the same distinction as Greg years ago, though I used different terms. I called #1 hierarchical authority. I can't recall what term I used for #2 -- Greg's term will do sufficiently well. The Church likes to talk about supernatural power, though they've been backing off that over the years, but what they really concentrate on is hierarchical authority. Joseph needed to establish his singular authority to be in charge. Brigham consolidated authority. Today's Church is run on a hierarchical corporate model, primarily by businessmen on capitalist business models.
Arcturus wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:47 pm
I'm curious what you all think about Greg Prince's, and any others in his camp for that matter (Givens, Bushman), view on Mormon supernaturalism. Do you think he believes the priesthood actually gives you supernatural power?
That's hard to say without asking him or them directly. Certainly a lot of people do believe in supernaturalism, though ones who come across as reasonable and rational seem to believe in it in more of a theoretical fashion most of the time.

While I have a hard time saying that I believe in supernaturalism, I still think there can be value in some of the Mormon priesthood (as a power to serve towards good) activities. While faith healing is dubious at best, a blessing of comfort really can convey comfort for those that want it to. Shared rituals can be meaningful. Human service and touch can be beneficial.

Where it dramatically breaks down for me with the Mormon priesthood is the whole exclusivity. If there is anything to the idea of supernatural / shared / community / healing / creative power, it clearly is the domain of women at least as much as men. Excluding it from them is simply men trying trying to assert control over something that isn't really exclusively theirs. And the hierarchical authority is exclusive to me only because the men insist on keeping it that way. And the more of that hierarchical authority a man has the more likely they are to insist on retaining that exclusivity. (Joseph had something interesting to say about that, one of the most true, profound things he said.)

I would say that the promise of supernatural power is one of the big lies the hierarchy uses to maintain exclusive control to hierarchical authority.
This is why I wanted to amend my first post from saying that priesthood is something men invented to maintain “power over women” to saying to is something “men invented to maintain authority over women and other men who are lower in the organization.” It is really more about authority in the way it is used and less about any kind of power. The men do tell women that the prayer of a righteous woman can accomplish just as much as a priesthood blessing. So, women have the power of prayer, which is really the same as the power of priesthood. I would suggest that this begs the question of why priesthood is even needed, but I have seen “priesthood authority” used to tell women what we are allowed to do in supposedly “our” organizations. Men have told women what books are acceptable in book clubs, what lessons are appropriate for enrichment meetings, what activities are appropriate for YW all using this authority over women.

It is the authority of priesthood that keeps women out of the decision making positions and gives them no authority over the auxiliaries they and YW attend. Of the various kinds of power that I learned about in my social work and psychology classes, authority is one kind of power, so saying power isn’t wrong, just not as specific as to what kind of power. And personally, I have never had other kinds of power used against me n the church. Other kinds of power being knowledge, physical force, expertise, money...you get the picture.

And for those who assume that I hate men, I have had women use authority as a weapon to hurt others also.

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Jeffret
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Jeffret » Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:49 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:21 pm
This is why I wanted to amend my first post from saying that priesthood is something men invented to maintain “power over women” to saying to is something “men invented to maintain authority over women and other men who are lower in the organization.”
I don't think you were wrong in the way that you said it. The Mormon Church is a great example of patriarchy, which is not only a structure for keeping women in their place, but also for keeping men in theirs. It demonstrates well that a few select men get the higher power while others get lesser degrees. But no matter how much lesser, they still have more power than women. I like using the term hierarchical authority but really it all comes down to power. The same sorts of things exist in other classist systems, such as racism.
The men do tell women that the prayer of a righteous woman can accomplish just as much as a priesthood blessing. So, women have the power of prayer, which is really the same as the power of priesthood.
That's what they say when they're pressed or when they want to try and curry the favor of the women to keep them in line. They definitely don't act like they believe it. Sure the prayer of a righteous woman can accomplish as much as a priesthood blessing, but when you're in distress you'd better call the brethern to perform a priesthood blessing.
I would suggest that this begs the question of why priesthood is even needed, but I have seen “priesthood authority” used to tell women what we are allowed to do in supposedly “our” organizations. Men have told women what books are acceptable in book clubs, what lessons are appropriate for enrichment meetings, what activities are appropriate for YW all using this authority over women.
And don't forget that women need to always have men around in case they need to exercise their priesthood. Or whatever.
Last edited by Jeffret on Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

Arcturus
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Arcturus » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:20 am

Jeffret wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:12 pm
While I have a hard time saying that I believe in supernaturalism, I still think there can be value in some of the Mormon priesthood (as a power to serve towards good) activities. While faith healing is dubious at best, a blessing of comfort really can convey comfort for those that want it to. Shared rituals can be meaningful. Human service and touch can be beneficial.
Thanks for getting the topic back on track Jeffret. I agree strongly with your point here.

About 3 months before my DW and I stepped away from activity and let our LDS friends know, my DW's friend -- let's call her Jane -- and Jane's DH had stopped by our house to pick up their kids whom we were babysitting. They just got back from the doctor where they were looking into a potential cancer scare for Jane and she was understandably very scared about the whole thing, tears and all. Right then and there Jane asked me to help her DH give her a blessing. I hesitated because I was fully unbelieving at this point but my DW gave me a strong look so I participated in the blessing. She was immediately calmed afterward I assume because of her reassurance from believing in a supernatural priesthood power. Later news from the doctor came back favorable, no cancer just a cyst on the internal organ.

However, after we "came out" to our friends about our faith Jane did have an awkward time getting back to normal with my DW. I imagine it likely had to do with the fact that I participated in a blessing for her when I had no belief in the process.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
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Arcturus
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Arcturus » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:30 am

alas wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:21 pm
This is why I wanted to amend my first post from saying that priesthood is something men invented to maintain “power over women” to saying to is something “men invented to maintain authority over women and other men who are lower in the organization.”
I saw this inference in what you first wrote alas. And I agree with everything you've said here.
alas wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:21 pm
And for those who assume that I hate men, I have had women use authority as a weapon to hurt others also.
I'd like to think that most folks won't draw that assumption from what you've said.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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Jeffret
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Jeffret » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:52 am

Arcturus wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:20 am
She was immediately calmed afterward I assume because of her reassurance from believing in a supernatural priesthood power. Later news from the doctor came back favorable, no cancer just a cyst on the internal organ.
This is a very common, natural experience. There isn't anything supernatural about it. The Mormon practice of it can be meaningful for people.

The problem I had with it, starting from long before I finally left the Church, is the way the priesthood claims exclusive ownership over it. In some ways giving exclusive control imbues it with greater psychological power. But, in the Mormon Church this power is acknowledged for anyone 1) of sufficient age, 2) having a penis, and 3) in sufficient tribal loyalty and standing. There is nothing about who is actually good at it or practiced at it. In some cultures around the world communities recognize a shaman, who has skills and practice at these sorts of connective rituals. The Mormon practice that anyone* can perform it provides a way that people close to the person can perform this service, family members, close friends etc. (* Anyone with a penis.) They don't have to find someone with an increased amount of hierarchical authority to perform, though it is generally considered that the higher someone is in the hierarchy the greater the efficacy. In essence, Mormon priesthood blessings are very egalitarian and have been since their beginning, but are also strong props of the authoritarian hierarchy of the priesthood.

As egalitarian as they are, there is always one group that is strictly excluded, for no justifiable reason. Indeed, women are the group that should be most justifiably included, particularly in a culture like Mormonism. Women are trained to be nurturers yet carefully excluded from this type of nurturing for no reason.

If the goal were really healing and comfort, your wife should have been allowed to be an active participant rather than just an observer and second-class / -hand participant.

This is the big reason why I just couldn't bring myself to participate in the ritual even back when I met all the requirements. (I still meet 2 of 3.)
Arcturus wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:20 am
However, after we "came out" to our friends about our faith Jane did have an awkward time getting back to normal with my DW. I imagine it likely had to do with the fact that I participated in a blessing for her when I had no belief in the process.
They're not necessarily connected. Most believers have a hard time when someone leaves the fold. My wife had a friend who pretty much refused to have anything to do with her after we left. (Her daughter, though, interacts meaningfully with me.) If they've managed to get somewhat back to normal, consider that a meaningful accomplishment.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Jeffret » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:54 am

Arcturus wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:30 am
alas wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:21 pm
This is why I wanted to amend my first post from saying that priesthood is something men invented to maintain “power over women” to saying to is something “men invented to maintain authority over women and other men who are lower in the organization.”
I saw this inference in what you first wrote alas. And I agree with everything you've said here.
alas wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:21 pm
And for those who assume that I hate men, I have had women use authority as a weapon to hurt others also.
I'd like to think that most folks won't draw that assumption from what you've said.
Absolutely. Any comments to the contrary were willfully wrong and utterly unfounded.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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wtfluff
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by wtfluff » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:48 am

Arcturus wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:20 am
About 3 months before my DW and I stepped away from activity and let our LDS friends know, my DW's friend -- let's call her Jane -- and Jane's DH had stopped by our house to pick up their kids whom we were babysitting. They just got back from the doctor where they were looking into a potential cancer scare for Jane and she was understandably very scared about the whole thing, tears and all. Right then and there Jane asked me to help her DH give her a blessing. I hesitated because I was fully unbelieving at this point but my DW gave me a strong look so I participated in the blessing. She was immediately calmed afterward I assume because of her reassurance from believing in a supernatural priesthood power. Later news from the doctor came back favorable, no cancer just a cyst on the internal organ.
The placebo effect is demonstrably real. Sadly, the placebo effect cannot cure cancer. (Or do anything about a benign cyst on an internal organ.)


Arcturus wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:20 am
However, after we "came out" to our friends about our faith Jane did have an awkward time getting back to normal with my DW. I imagine it likely had to do with the fact that I participated in a blessing for her when I had no belief in the process.
Again, there's a term for this: Cognitive dissonance. Whether it had to do with the blessing, or with general fear of you and your wife's non-belief (as Jeffret mentioned.)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

We are secrets to each other

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alas
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by alas » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:51 am

Jeffret wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:54 am
Arcturus wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:30 am
alas wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:21 pm
This is why I wanted to amend my first post from saying that priesthood is something men invented to maintain “power over women” to saying to is something “men invented to maintain authority over women and other men who are lower in the organization.”
I saw this inference in what you first wrote alas. And I agree with everything you've said here.
alas wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:21 pm
And for those who assume that I hate men, I have had women use authority as a weapon to hurt others also.
I'd like to think that most folks won't draw that assumption from what you've said.
Absolutely. Any comments to the contrary were willfully wrong and utterly unfounded.
Thanks guys. My head knows this, but he hit old scar tissue. One of the things bishops judged me as unworthy about was while I was healing from sexual abuse and still gave bishops some authority, was that I was angry and untrusting of all authority, especially men=them personally=their (swear word)priesthood. They couldn’t separate that my distrust of all men was justified, after all the church promised me big time that my parents would never hurt me, from my distrust of them and priesthood authority, as if my father was not a priesthood authority himself. They resented the fact that I expected them to earn my trust. They EARNED it by being promoted to bishop. So, since I didn’t trust them=God, I was unworthy. Yeah, well, I suppose I also didn’t trust their God who never helped either. Their attitude was an abuse of their authority, but tell that to the injured who just need help.

Back on topic, I agree that there is some good in the comfort priesthood blessings can give. Recently we witnessed an ATVing accident. It was a side by side, two rider style, with roll bars over top. They came within inches of taking us down the mountain with them, so pretty scary. Anyway, the woman was not wearing either her helmet, or her seatbelt. She ended up pretty seriously injured, with a concussion. She was rambling and incoherent because of the concussion. She repeatedly begged for a blessing. The available priesthood gave her a blessing. She calmed during the blessing. As an unbeliever I was kind of surprised because she became coherent after that. The pain of 8 shattered ribs, broken neck bones, smashed leg, and concussion didn’t go away, but she stayed calmer, even as five minutes later she had forgotten they gave her a blessing and was asking for a blessing again. She no longer even remembered the blessing, but she stayed coherent and calmer, even though she was repeatedly asking what happened, asking for a blessing, and asking if her husband was hurt. It was almost two hours before the helicopter got there. It had to fly from Provo to the mountains above Emery. No placebo when she didn’t remember the blessing, but the effect lasted.

Human touch, human caring, calm words, the sense of doing something. There is something more than just placebo. She didn’t even remember, might as well have been unconscious, but it made a visible difference. Yeah, if I wasn’t an unbeliever, this would have been a big testimony boost.

I don’t think it is exclusive to Mormonism, but faith works.

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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Thoughtful » Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:55 pm

In addition to the idea that priesthood gives leaders authority over others, such as women and lower ranking men, it also gives the church authority over Jesus.

It's the fundamental difference between Christianity and LDS Christianity-- grace of Jesus vs. Saving Ordinances.

All the way up to the second anointing, the priesthood gives church leadership as a governing body more power than Christ to save souls and administrate the details of eternal life. Of course leaving everyone, especially women, in the debt of the men who condescend to do the administration.

Reuben
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Re: Why Priesthood At All?

Post by Reuben » Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:39 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:55 pm
In addition to the idea that priesthood gives leaders authority over others, such as women and lower ranking men, it also gives the church authority over Jesus.

It's the fundamental difference between Christianity and LDS Christianity-- grace of Jesus vs. Saving Ordinances.

All the way up to the second anointing, the priesthood gives church leadership as a governing body more power than Christ to save souls and administrate the details of eternal life. Of course leaving everyone, especially women, in the debt of the men who condescend to do the administration.
I suppose if you've created God instead of the other way around, you can make God be and do whatever you like. You can have him threaten to reject everyone who doesn't measure up, have him swear vengeance on everyone who scares you, throw him under the bus when you screw up, and make him hand you the keys to the gates of heaven.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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